FA claim procedure


Original Post
Ethan Clark · · Verona WI · Joined Nov 2016 · Points: 260

I am fairly new to the site, but have posted a few routes, some in new areas I've created. Recently one was commented on saying "I did that climb last year, and FA'd the route to the right also". This route was pretty dirty; I mean I scrapped inches of dirt out of pockets, cut small trees growing from cracks, and built a landing. It's also in an area that has no climbing history I can find. No bolts or cleaned routes, nothing on the web about climbing there.

So what's the protocol for this situation? Ignore the comment? Give them the FA? I feel like I've put the work into making this a route, and documenting it on this site, but also don't want to cheat someone else. Thanks

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 275
Ethan Clark wrote:I am fairly new to the site, but have posted a few routes, some in new areas I've created. Recently one was commented on saying "I did that climb last year, and FA'd the route to the right also". This route was pretty dirty; I mean I scrapped inches of dirt out of pockets, cut small trees growing from cracks, and built a landing. It's also in an area that has no climbing history I can find. No bolts or cleaned routes, nothing on the web about climbing there. So what's the protocol for this situation? Ignore the comment? Give them the FA? I feel like I've put the work into making this a route, and documenting it on this site, but also don't want to cheat someone else. Thanks
I can see doing some "gardening" (removing dirt and weeds) on a potential route, but not sure removing trees is ethical. Is this public land or privately owned?

Sorry for not answering your question, but the removal of trees really stood out to me.
Ethan Clark · · Verona WI · Joined Nov 2016 · Points: 260

The trees I referred to were less than 1 inch around, all I used was hand clippers. The point of mentioning them was that they were almost certainly older than 1 year, and it didn't seem as thought the route had seen any traffic.
It's on public land

Nick Wilder · · The Bubble · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 2,386

Use the "Improve Page" button and make the claim, including the month/year. We'll fix it up.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,893

"I did that back in the day" always trumps, especially if downgraded ;)

chris magness · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590

This has nothing to do with Mountain Project.

I'd do some homework and ask around locally and attempt to verify the claims. Perhaps there is a belayer? Or other new route activists? Was this an individual that's established routes like this before and in this style? There are plenty of folks around who have climbed new routes and left no evidence. Not even a path through the lichen.

chris magness · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590

Mark! Happy 2017!

Funny how that happens all the time around here!

Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

Ignore them unless they've substantiated the claim somehow.

If they really were first, they should have claimed it. They have a MP account snd could have posted, like you did, if they wanted credit. Perhaps you are only the first recorded ascent, but it's the recorded part that counts.

....

Also, we all climbed that other route before you, too. And your proj, we ran up that last week--barefoot. And in hiking boots.

chris magness · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 590
Nathan Self wrote:Ignore them unless they've substantiated the claim somehow. If they really were first, they should have claimed it. They have a MP account snd could have posted, like you did, if they wanted credit. Perhaps you are only the first recorded ascent, but it's the recorded part that counts. .... Also, we all climbed that other route before you, too. And your proj, we ran up that last week--barefoot. And in hiking boots.
Sheesh. MP is not a defining entity. Routes were established long before this site existed. Because it wasn't listed here, doesn't mean it wasn't already established. If I were to climb Serenity Crack and then add it to MP, could I claim the FA?

Ethan, are you referring to a boulder problem? I'd assume that any accessible problem of the grades you listed such as V1 or V0 was probably climbed long before your time, you never know who's been romping around in the woods. A hiker could run up that sort of thing in tennis shoes.

Consider listing FA unknown on the easier lines and FRA (first recorded ascent) on the harder ones unless they are refuted, then FA unknown.
n00b · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2016 · Points: 40

The real question is "who cares?" Just live with the satisfaction of the experience.

Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

Chris,

Sheesh! You're really reading into what i said and arguing with claims I didn't make.

Cheers,

Nathan

TBlom · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2004 · Points: 360

instagram post or it didn't happen!

llanSan · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 130
n00b wrote:The real question is "who cares?" Just live with the satisfaction of the experience.
You sound like a Noob.
Marlin Thorman · · Spokane, WA · Joined Oct 2011 · Points: 385

Ethan, after looking through MP, I assume you are referring to a problem called Deer season? If so the other person who claims to have climbed it, has been climbing there for awhile. Looking at their ticks they were climbing in that location 2+ years ago. If you are both local to the area (which it sounds like you are) you should just meet up to climb and talk about what has been done already. Someone climbing V5/6 might not take the time to add a dirty V0 they did if they didn't like it. A collaboration would be much more beneficial than trying to out each other or start a war.

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,497
Marlin Thorman wrote:Ethan, after looking through MP, I assume you are referring to a problem called Deer season? If so the other person who claims to have climbed it, has been climbing there for awhile. Looking at their ticks they were climbing in that location 2+ years ago. If you are both local to the area (which it sounds like you are) you should just meet up to climb and talk about what has been done already. Someone climbing V5/6 might not take the time to add a dirty V0 they did if they didn't like it. A collaboration would be much more beneficial than trying to out each other or start a war.
Some great advice above.

Ethan, I'd add to let your feelings guide you ...

If you are willing to meet and talk (or just talk on the phone), first commit to yourself that you will reach an agreement with him on something to do about the MP page.

If you are not willing to talk, let it go and list him for the FA - perhaps messaging him to see if he is ok with the name you gave it.

In any case, you can provide the background on the PM page of who cleaned up the route.
Alex CV · · Greater NYC area · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 200

There are a lot of small crags around the Gunks that have been climbed by locals for decades but have no published guidebook (paper or online) by design. It preserves some of the adventure for future generations in an overly documented world. Lost City is a very well known example, but there are several other, more obscure crags. Recently, a list of harder routes was published without specific details.

https://gunksapps.com/news/GunksHardest.html

I think this is a really great idea. The history can be preserved, and at the same time the list can help foster personal connection within the climbing community--one must talk to others to seek information.

Local situations are all different, but I am sure many (most?) regions/areas have a lot of unpublished ascents as well. Before you publish information, it is definitely worth checking in with other locals, both to verify whether it is genuinely an FA and to make sure there isn't some sensitivity or reason why routes aren't published.

Ethan Clark · · Verona WI · Joined Nov 2016 · Points: 260

Thanks everyone for the advice, many great points. I'm certainly not trying to start a war. That said it seems perhaps the discussed person is, he also sent me a message with many phrases in all caps, such as "DO NOT PARK BLOCKING THE HORSE ACCESS", "DONT GO ON TO PRIVATE PROPERTY" and other obvious practices.
The only other area I've created had a similar comment about being climbed before, but with a much warmer tone, and I was even thanked for sharing it with other climbers. The area discussed in this thread is much less visited, and people may be disappointed that a fairly "private" area has been made more public. There is not much climbing in southern WI, so I wanted to share this area.
Im thinking I'll pull my name from the FA, and if he wants to claim it he can. I agree with n00b, it was a great experience finding the route with no guidance, figuring it out, cleaning it, and posting it.
Thanks again!

USBRIT Ross · · Keswick Cumbria.UK · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 21,363

Suggest Ethan stops messing about on vegetated bits of rock and if he wants FA's go to Utah ... more unclimbed rock there to last him several life times.

Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 5,382

Sounds like you and Jason should get together and do some exploring together.

I hadn't realized anyone had started posting about Donald Park!

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 285

Ethan, most SoWi bits (and Midwest ones in general) have been looked at and / or climbed going back to the 60's. A lack of hardware and the growth of whole trees doesn't necessarily mean anything with regards to FAs. As mentioned, a lot of times leaving ascents unrecorded was by design. Of late there has been somewhat of a rash of folks who feel the need to publish unpublished areas for whatever reason - you might want to reconsider those actions and the motivations driving them.

Also, while removing growth from cracks is generally cool, terracing generally isn't and as far as private property is concerned, private is the operative word - and blocking access of any type is a good way to get attention of the sort you don't want.

Good on you for exploring, but maybe put less emphasis on the whole online FA / sharing thing and just enjoy.

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
USBRIT wrote:Suggest Ethan stops messing about on vegetated bits of rock and if he wants FA's go to Utah ... more unclimbed rock there to last him several life times.
Seriously?
Because Utah is so easy to get to and such a short drive from southern Wisconsin for an evening or Saturday of bouldering?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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