Beginner multipitch

Biggie Fresh wrote:Thanks guys! Also, why do some people like for their rap device to be extended up from their harness? Almost at eye level. I can't see why this would be beneficial but I don't know much.

It makes it ez for your hair, if you have it, to get caught in the rap device.

Ted Pinson wrote:It's also much more comfortable to have in front of you rather than at your waist.

+1

I do this even when I don't use a backup. It's easier to hold the brake with 2 hands if it's extended.

I wouldn't extend it to eye-level, though. More like 6 inches from your belay loop.

That's partly so there's less to get caught in it (like Guy said), but also so that when you rap over an edge your rap device doesn't get stuck on top of the edge with you hanging off of it.

6-12 inch extension is a personal thing... up by you eye balls is something else..... one time we had to help out some dude who.. on top of the eye-ball extension... had a prussic above that!!! when the prussic clinched down the climber was stuck, he couldn't lift up enough to get to the prussic and was stuck in space.

happy holidays to all...

The video Tut posted is more of a big wall anchor than a beginner trad/multi-pitch anchor. It also is over complicating what is meant to be fast and simple with solid bolts.

eli poss wrote:For the locker shapes, it doesn't really matter. I like to use a small offset D locker (ie BD positron, DMM Spectre, CAMP Photon) to clip the belay device to the anchor and an HMS (pear shaped, ie BD Rocklock, Petzl attache, metolius element etc.) biner for clip in guide mode. Unless you're using really skinny ropes, you'll want to use an HMS with a round cross-section like the metolius element, CAMP Picto, Sterling falcon, etc

You almost always want a rounded stock carabiner to belay, especially when belaying from top and in plaquette (guide) mode, otherwise like others stated above, you are getting a crazy elbow tendonitis. If you are using skinny ropes, you want the extra friction of a non-round biner or even an additional biner.

eli poss wrote:Your options are either a friction hitch (ie prusik, autoblock, klemhiest, etc.) or using an assisted braking rappel devices, such as the megajul, alpine smart, alpine up, metolius BRD, etc. I never liked the whole friction hitch deal so I rap with my alpine up. For long multiple raps, you really will want some way to go hands-free when you inevitably have to untangle a clusterfuck on rappel.

Assisted braking devices are not "hands-free". You have to have some kind of rappel backup in the form of a friction hitch or a progress capture device.

eli poss wrote: Depending on your harness, you can just put the prusik on your leg loop and not have to extend your rappel. Regardless, an assisted braking rappel device is a better option, as it requires less gear and less management and no addition steps or procedures to fuck up on.

WRONG. You should not put the prusik on a leg loop for two reasons: a) they are not made for bearing weight - harness manufacturers do not recommend it (when in doubt, always follow manufacturers' recommendations); b) the prusik could get sucked in into the belay device from a body twist, thus collapse and release. There has been a fatality caused by prusik on a leg loop collapsing with a belay device.

Again. Assisted braking devices are not "hands-free". They slip.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but you need to understand the systems more before giving out wrong (potentially dangerous) advice especially to beginners.

King Tut wrote:This vid doesn't suck and I didn't see anything wrong...

There are faster, more efficient ways that provide a stronger power point, are more adaptable, don't waste rope, and don't rely on some beginning guess about how much rope will be needed to complete the anchor. I keep posting this, but here it is yet again.

Two points:

(1) The redirection point tied in the slack rope is strictly optional. Personally, I almost never use it.

(2) It is possible to misinterpret the numbering; it is meant to indicate the sequence of clove hitches after the butterfly power point has been tied. You tie that first, deciding exactly where you want it relative to your body.

Nicholas Aretz wrote:The video Tut posted is more of a big wall anchor than a beginner trad/multi-pitch anchor. It also is over complicating what is meant to be fast and simple with solid bolts.

Sorry, we are going to have to disagree.

An experienced leader ties off to bolts or his own placed anchor as fast as the video, it is not overly complicated. You may not always have 3 pts like the vid but it is sound technique, imo.

There are significant advantages in belaying off of the anchor that this shows how to set up simply and quickly.

Fundamentally, it is a starting point for a beginner to learn from (ie how each tie in has its function and the great utility of clove hitches), not that it is necessarily the be all and end all of way to do it.

rgold wrote: Two points: (1) The redirection point tied in the slack rope is strictly optional. Personally, I almost never use it. (2) It is possible to misinterpret the numbering; it is meant to indicate the sequence of clove hitches after the butterfly power point has been tied. You tie that first, deciding exactly where you want it relative to your body.

1. Redirection point: Totally agree. But the video does show a way (when it is extended to the power point) to equalize all anchor points and is useful for a beginner to be exposed to the concept.

2. I also do not tie myself into the "power point" however in the theoretical case of an anchor that truly has to be equalized it is sound, imo, as all three anchor points bear your weight too.

3. I also greatly prefer the ability to escape the anchor, but that is another post and perhaps beyond the scope of the medium to convey the somewhat rare circumstances that lead this to be desirable.

I also thought it useful for the demonstration for how to properly set up a belay off the anchor. Being 6'2" and 225 I greatly prefer to be belayed as a follower in this fashion. Newbies (and even the very experienced) often underestimate the forces the second can generate and be easily pulled off their stance leading to loss of control of the belay. Yes, I have been dropped in just this fashion.

best regards to you Rich, and all that you do promoting sound technique here at MP.

Back atcha KT.

I'm not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with something here, but the rigging I posted is totally escapable because of the butterfly power point. The belayer can just untie and walk away and the anchor integrity is unaffected.

In the case of an escape, the loaded rope to the fallen climber might in some cases be attached to a strand coming off the power point rather than directly to the power point. This is usually done when the anchor is not easy to reach from the belay position, but with the rigging pictured, the power point is always easy to get to. But anyway, if an extended strand is needed, the strand one wants is the one coming from the Step 4 anchor, and as suggested in the diagram, clipping this strand to the power point will enable the load applied to the extended strand to be distributed to all anchor points rather than just the step 4 anchor point.

One of the many small advantages of this system (and they do add up!) is that it works perfectly well with two bolts or four anchors and in combination with sideways or upward directionals, and the same sequence of actions is used for every configuration---it is completely standardized one-stop shopping for almost all anchor situations, including remote anchors far from the belayer if you have enough rope for them. (When the anchors are really far from the belay stance, a cordelette on the anchors wins the day.)

rgold wrote:Back atcha KT. I'm not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with something here, but the rigging I posted is totally escapable because of the butterfly power point. The belayer can just untie and walk away and the anchor integrity is unaffected.

(we are getting a little deep into the weeds of esoteria here in rare scenarios but...)

Totally understand that the belayer can simply untie due to the butterfly knot (as long as he can get it out of the biner) but the idea I prefer is to be anchored to a separate point only that is directly holding my weight rather than the same point weighted and holding the follower (when the anchor does not have to be totally equalized). This way, if at a stance when the follower falls the belayer is not potentially pulled off his stance by the weight coming onto the "power point" and giving him a jerk or pinning him unexpectedly.

It also leaves me free to reach the anchor points to daisy/pas off to escape rather than potentially be short armed if the power point has been extended to clear a lip etc. and is now weighted by the falling second trapping me below the anchor. Having this ability to be tied in to the anchor but having freedom from the weight of a falling second is ideal to my (current) thinking.

All of which (as you are well aware) has to be considered on many multi-pitch routes when setting up an anchor to handle any eventuality as the climbing may dictate.

ie Scenario why escaping the anchor can be vital (for beginners in the thread):

1. Second falls, takes a swing and is concussed (unconscious).

2. They are no longer upright and their airway and blood flow to their head is compromised.

3. They need immediate assistance to regain consciousness/protect their airway. If the leader has set up his anchor allowing him to escape and rappel on a tag line (and they have one with) then the day is saved as he can descend and assist.

Or the second cannot follow and has to prussik and needs someone to show him/her etc etc any case the second needs help. Imagine the possibilities where going down to fix the problem is better than screaming for rescue.

Of course, this is the (very) rare need, but is something to think about on multi-pitch routes.

doligo wrote:Assisted braking devices are not "hands-free". They slip. Sorry if I sound harsh, but you need to understand the systems more before giving out wrong (potentially dangerous) advice especially to beginners.

I've tested both the alpine smart and alpine up. The smart slips slowly on a single rope rappel and doesn't slip on double rope rap. The alpine up is the same and has been tested to catch falls unattended with double ropes.

So, provided you are doing a double rope rap, you can count on it lock up. That being said, I usually throw in a leg wrap or two before going hands-free

youtube.com/watch?v=nFn4xzV…

doligo wrote: WRONG. You should not put the prusik on a leg loop for two reasons: a) they are not made for bearing weight - harness manufacturers do not recommend it (when in doubt, always follow manufacturers' recommendations); b) the prusik could get sucked in into the belay device from a body twist, thus collapse and release. There has been a fatality caused by prusik on a leg loop collapsing with a belay device.

I may be in the weeds here, but...

If you size you autoblock correctly there is no reason you can't put it on your leg loop. I have a correctly size piece of cord permanently girth hitched to my leg loop. There is no amount of twisting that will cause it to touch the belay device.

As far as the leg loop not being weight bearing, you are correct. However, the autoblock is not holding body weight -not even close. It is only taking the place of you brake hand. You rappel device is holding the weight, the brake hand or autoblock is only holding a very small fraction.

Also what manufacturer is recommending you don't use an autoblock on your leg loop? Do you have a specific example you could post? I'm not doubting you, I've just never seen it.

And for the argument about the new speed buckles, if you are careful and position everything on the correct side of the buckle, you have nothing to worry about.

So in summary if done right an autoblock on the leg loop is perfectly safe. I've been doing it for 10 years and never had an issue. AS most things in climbing, often the issue is pilot error...

Stagg54 Taggart wrote: I may be in the weeds here, but... If you size you autoblock correctly there is no reason you can't put it on your leg loop. I have a correctly size piece of cord permanently girth hitched to my leg loop. There is no amount of twisting that will cause it to touch the belay device.

Try with somebody with a smaller frame with a big rack of screws on one side and lots of layers of clothing.

Stagg54 Taggart wrote: As far as the leg loop not being weight bearing, you are correct. However, the autoblock is not holding body weight -not even close. It is only taking the place of you brake hand. You rappel device is holding the weight, the brake hand or autoblock is only holding a very small fraction.

In the event of catastrophic failure, it would.

Stagg54 Taggart wrote: Also what manufacturer is recommending you don't use an autoblock on your leg loop? Do you have a specific example you could post? I'm not doubting you, I've just never seen it. And for the argument about the new speed buckles, if you are careful and position everything on the correct side of the buckle, you have nothing to worry about. So in summary if done right an autoblock on the leg loop is perfectly safe. I've been doing it for 10 years and never had an issue. AS most things in climbing, often the issue is pilot error...

This topic has been beat to death on the old RC.com with the BD engineer advising not to use the leg loop. Not sure if the threads are still there, you may try to search for them. Also, if you check any of Petzl tech tips, there are no mentions of using a leg loop. Just because things have been done a certain way for a long time and you never got into a trouble, doesn't mean it's safe or a good practice, especially when teaching to beginners. I just know of a friend of a friend's fatality caused by the leg loop scenario, and that's for me is enough of an argument to not use the leg loop for a backup.

Stagg54 Taggart wrote: And for the argument about the new speed buckles, if you are careful and position everything on the correct side of the buckle, you have nothing to worry about.... AS most things in climbing, often the issue is pilot error.

I always cringe when I see this type of argument. While it may be technically correct I will argue a method that is just as easy (as extending is) that doesn't have that qualifier is a better way to go.

Accidents have happened with using a leg loop, and the countermeasure to those problems was the development of the extended rappel.

The "pilot error" response ignores the real issue; there is a failure mode you're choosing to ignore, that can easily come into play. It's the same as saying, well if you set your rappel up right you don't need to weight it before you unhook your anchor. We weight the rap before unhooking incase we DIDN'T.

Tldr: extended rap is developed, in part, as a countermeasure to pilot error, along with some other possible failure modes, and costs you nothing to do.

eli poss wrote: I've tested both the alpine smart and alpine up. The smart slips slowly on a single rope rappel and doesn't slip on double rope rap. The alpine up is the same and has been tested to catch falls unattended with double ropes. So, provided you are doing a double rope rap, you can count on it lock up.

I've tested the Alpine Up as well with the aim of seeing how much load on a single brake strand is required for locking. It will not lock on a single strand with no load beyond the weight of rope hanging from device to ground, although it requires just a tiny bit more than that (I gave the numbers in some thread here I can't recall at the moment.)

I'm sure things are better with two ropes (the unassisted catch video uses two ropes) but didn't test that. The take-away, which I'm sure is true for other semi-automatic belay devices, is in any case not to count on auto-locking when you are near the end of the rappel or any time, say because of hangups, that there is very little rope weight.

Whether this makes you add a friction knot backup to the system is a personal risk evaluation choice---I do not do so for any kind of ordinary rappel but I understand where people who do are coming from.

As for putting the friction knot on a leg loop, that is an inferior solution which, like many such things, has persisted in spite of generally-disseminated knowledge about better ways.

For going hands-free as opposed to emergency stopping of the rappel, leg wraps are the only totally safe option.

Dylan B. wrote:If I get knocked out or lose control of the rappel somehow, the device will slow my descent to a crawl. SO long as there are knots on the ends, I will not be seriously injured beyond whatever caused me to loose control of the rappel to begin with.

I'm interested to know how you tested this.

In my experience, mechanic rope grabs work better with assisted belay devices. But in case I need to go hands free, I prefer extended ATC + friction hitch method, say if I need to clean the route on the way down etc. Rather than advocating backing up assisted braking devices for rappel, I was merely pointing out that they are in no way mean "hands-free" and users need to use some sort of backup (whether it's a friction hitch or leg wraps like both Dylan and Eli admitted) in order to go hands free.

So are there always/usually three bolts at a bolted belay station?

Biggie Fresh wrote:So are there always/usually three bolts at a bolted belay station?

No, two is the norm.

So most if not all of the anchoring strategies listed require three bolts. What's something I can use at a standard two bolt belay station?