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David Vogel · · Lake Forest, CA · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 1,290

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sfotex · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 225
Ranivorous Troglodyte wrote: Ideally official professional training would be best. But realistically not every climber can do this
Why not? IMHO having some level of basic medical training if you recreate outdoors regularly is just as important as knowing how to belay safely, etc.

For less then the cost of a cam or a pair of shoes a climber in the US can get basic training.
redcross.org/take-a-class/L…

Ranivorous Troglodyte wrote:, and a simple ABC 123 free Rescue manual could save a lot of lives or minimize serious injury.
Why reinvent the wheel?, there's plenty of resources out there already. The problem with with watching a few videos on the web is you may just know enough to do more harm then good...
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 275

For the situation like the OP experienced, seems like a high-angle rescue course would be more helpful than basic first aid. Most guide services offer a one or two-day course in it.

Kyle Tarry · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 162

There are already a ton of organizations that will teach you first aid (Red Cross, NOLS, REI, WildMed) and there are a ton of educational resources available out there (books, videos, etc). It doesn't seem sensible to have a bunch of non-experts put together "competing" material.

Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

All bleeding stops

sfotex · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 225
Buff Johnson wrote:All bleeding stops
Air goes in and out, blood goes round and round, any variation on this is a bad thing.

You can also learn to rock climb on youtube...... just go take a real first aid class.
fossana · · leeds, ut · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 12,951

Appreciate the motivation, but there are also a number of excellent self-rescue resources out there including:

amazon.com/Climbing-Self-Re…
climbing.com/skills/save-yo…

I also took an excellent class from fellow MP member, Gregger Man

ChapelPondGirl · · Keene, NY · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 20

I personally think the idea of a quick reference style pdf for self rescue is a good idea. Taking a full on high angle rescue course would serve little to no purpose for recreational climbers though. Professional rescue work differs from recreational. However, a climbing party findings selves stuck would benefit from knowing what to do to make access for professionals easy, and prep the a scene, so when I a high angle team gets there the can easily do a scene size up.

I have a background in both and would be willing to throw some ideas out there if the OP is interested in collaborating.

r m · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 0
sfotex wrote: Why not? IMHO having some level of basic medical training if you recreate outdoors regularly is just as important as knowing how to belay safely, etc...
I don't agree that it's as important as belaying safely...But I like your sentiment. And one of these days I'll get around to doing that WFR course...

Unfortunately, the it seems to me that climbers for the most part get by with the bare minimum required skills for when everything-is-going-well. Rescue skills, first aid skills, these are skills which if I were to hazard a guess - absent in most climbers. Realistically I just don't see formal medical training a thing that'll be the norm in my part of the world, hell I suspect the time/effort investment of reading a 2 page PDF to be beyond most.

However, hopefully this cynic is wrong! I really wish society put a higher emphasis on these life saving skills.
sfotex · · Sandy, UT · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 225
r m wrote: I don't agree that it's as important as belaying safely...But I like your sentiment. And one of these days I'll get around to doing that WFR course... Unfortunately, the it seems to me that climbers for the most part get by with the bare minimum required skills for when everything-is-going-well. Rescue skills, first aid skills, these are skills which if I were to hazard a guess - absent in most climbers. Realistically I just don't see formal medical training a thing that'll be the norm in my part of the world, hell I suspect the time/effort investment of reading a 2 page PDF to be beyond most. However, hopefully this cynic is wrong! I really wish society put a higher emphasis on these life saving skills.
Well, an ounce of prevention is better then a pound of cure so you have me there. Expecting someone do to a week long WFR class is asking a lot, but a 6 hour basic first aid class? I bet majority of climbers have one going on any giving Saturday in their community. Heck, my employer will reimburse if an employee goes.

As you point out, there seems to be an absence of basic skills to deal with things if they go wrong in the outdoor community as a whole. I understand there's a learning curve to climbing, and I wouldn't expect someone who is starting out climbing and at a road side crag to have all these, but if you're going on a week long trip to the Winds......
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145

calling out things like multi-system trauma, massive hemorrhage, shock, spinal injury, things all to common in climbing accidents, being addressed as basic first aid and tossed around as medical care by google-u on the open forum is nothing but a fool's errand.

Bill Kirby · · Baltimore Maryland · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

Along with CPR and first aid I keep a copy of these papers with me. It seems like a good way to keep on track assessing a victim until the pros arrive.

First aid
Old lady H · · Boise, Idaho · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 290

Yeah, the medical stuff is well covered, if folks are so inclined, and should probably be left for individuals to seek out, if they are inclined. Really complicated, protocols change, and you do need to not make things worse. CPR/AED courses can be pushed so hard, because, as an instructor once put it, "they're more or less dead". Makes good Samaritan laws pretty workable! Not so with a broken ankle.

Basic skills, like ascending a rope, can be easily and safely practiced, though. If those of us who can use a prussik and Purcell's, for example, just do so now and then in public, people get the idea very, very quickly. My gym won't let me do it now, but the two times I did practice some ascending (with cords, not hardware) the people who were interested instantly saw how it works, and had that "aha" look on their face. And, how many ways such a simple knot might be useful.

Helen

Kent Richards · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 83
Buff Johnson wrote:calling out things like multi-system trauma, massive hemorrhage, shock, spinal injury, things all to common in climbing accidents, being addressed as basic first aid and tossed around as medical care by google-u on the open forum is nothing but a fool's errand.
+1

Anything that resembles a manual for First Aid instruction or reference should be left to the pros: Emergency medicine professionals with a lot of experience in the treatment protocols and the creation of reference / instructional materials.

There are already good books / videos on basic self-rescue. High-angle rescue is generally overkill for the recreational climber, and anyone who initiates or oversees an actual technical rescue should be well-trained and practiced in it. Technical rescue instruction & manuals should also be left to the pros.

That said, maybe the existing literature could be consolidated a bit better, and a curated web page of links to resources would probably be helpful.

I'm dubious of it's efficacy, though. I don't imagine many climbers who can't dedicate the time for a 2-day course being thorough in ad-hoc personal study -- especially because the knowledge is already out there and findable to people who want it. But, I'm also generally cynical about human nature -- maybe I'm wrong, and these efforts will prompt many people will pursue it.

I'd be psyched to see a scholarship fund for WFA / WFR classes, and an awareness campaign to motivate people to learn first aid / self-rescue.
Jeremy B. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2013 · Points: 0
Ranivorous Troglodyte wrote:The fact is most climbers can't or won't sign up for a one or two day class.
And why not? I know, you have to work with what you have, but this seems like primarily a motivational problem.

Ranivorous Troglodyte wrote:I hope we can eventually make a free official PDF manual.
Keeping in mind your audience is presumably people who can't be bothered to learn even basic first aid or self-rescue skills:

I'd stick to a single page or similar; even a couple infographics that can be re-used elsewhere (e.g. at trailheads). The basic first aid concepts, as sfotex alluded, aren't particularly difficult.

Fasulo's book has much of the info you'd want for the ropework. You can't teach the complex stuff in a single-page guide, and it's probably better not to try. Instead, what are 2-4 basic skills (or mistakes) that you see having the greatest impact on patient outcomes?
m kelley · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2016 · Points: 0

If ya'll make something I will carry it with me while climbing.

Nolan Huther · · Clarkson University · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 607

RT- I wish you the best recovery. From your posts, you're willing to educate yourself to prevent the scenario from happening again, and to try amd let others learn from your unfortunate mistakes. Of course I agree with all this. But a PDF will not achieve these goals. If you wish to be competent to handle a medical emergency, take a WFR course (though RT, you seem to be proficient in medical training already). The skills learned there are invaluable. As you said, professional training is best. I don't think there is a substitute for that. I worry that such a piece of material may be used in hubris for climbers who think that a piece of paper they've looked over once or twice is enough to handle a serious situation.

I do believe a good text is useful in studying first aid. I have a copy of Wildcare, the SOLO Wilderness Medicine textbook, right next to Freedom of the Hills. Neither are my primary resources for their respective purposes. What should be the primary resource is all the training and mentorship from experienced peers and professionals. I would be sketched out if a guy walked up to the crag with a brand new set of cams and a copy of Freedom of the Hills, going through the index to find "lead climbing" or whatever, just as much as I would be if someday I take a bad fall and look down to see my fibula sticking through my kneecap only to have some guy pull a pamphlet out of his backpack and try and start following a how-to he found online.

So I advocate picking up a textbook on wilderness medical care and using that as a primer to a WFR (ideally) or a WFA certification, and then as a review of skills learned in those environments. Such books are written through a collaboration of people who are both medical professionals and backcountry enthusiasts and represent a substantial pool of knowledge.

RT- best of luck to a speedy recovery!

nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 348

It's sounds like you're using the word "we" a lot, implying that you expect other people to volunteer their time to re-write material that already has a million books written and classes offered. If you want to do it, by all means, I'll read what you come up with. But I think it might be a bit optimistic to think that you'll have people lining up to do the heavy lifting for/with you.

ChapelPondGirl · · Keene, NY · Joined Oct 2016 · Points: 20

Look, not very many people know what to do in an emergency situation. It is difficult to keep your shit together and process informastion in a rational way. It has been proven time and again that in stressful situations, human beings perform much better using a checklist. I think this may be hat the OP has in mind. Basically a "Oh shit, we're in trouble! What do I do now?" sort of quick reference guide.

Don't waste your time on a WFR course, unless you are routinely taking large numbers of people into the back country for extended periods of time. 90% of the information in those courses you will never use, You need to know how to do a primary and secondary assessment, stabilize the spine, open the airway, stop bleeding, and splint long bones and joints. The rest of the stuff is fluff in the back country, because you ain't doing shit for someone with an intestinal blockage or ectopic pregnancy, other than getting them out as fast as possible.

What recreational climbers need to know is how to stabilize the scene immediately after an accident, do a quick scene size up, how to contact the appropriate agency to initiate a rescue, and what information is critical to impart to them, and what to expect when that rescue arrives so you can be helpful to them, instead of another idiot they have to manage.

Things like, what's more important, potentially disturbing a spinal injury, or getting someone out of a suspension trauma scenario? What's more important, do you initiate a self rescue, or shelter in place and go for help? How do you decide that? Do you know how to do a risk/benefit analysis in the field? How many improvisational carrying methods do you know?

OP, am I on the mark here, or way off base?

Nolan Huther · · Clarkson University · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 607

ChapelPondGirl, everything you described is what I learned in my WFR course. I agree with everything you said, except that lots of WFR is "useless," since as a WFR graduate, I consider most everything to be quite important that I learned. Especially since I have had the displeasure of having to respond to an accident the backcountry, in the middle of a multipitch. The material you described as "useless" was only discussed under the category which I roughly describe as "you can do nothing, immediate evacuation." We focused more on realistic scenarios- our instructor laid out several per day, ranging from heart attack, to broken limbs, anaphylactic shock, mass casualties, one person even sprayed himself down with a hose in 40 degree weather and waited outside for a while just so we would have a more accurate hypothermia situation. We also worked heavily in constructing splints, slings and litters from what we would have available in the backcountry. We were taught diagnosis and how to respond to scenarios. And methods of self-rescue on a medical side. I'd be surprised in even 10% of that information could be considered "useless" since it is precisely what you described as important. Did you have a different WFR experience when you took the course?

You do not, in this particular post, suggest an alternative. Aside from WEMT, is there a course that has hands-on learning given by experienced professionals that is superior to WFR? In that case, then I would like to take this course. Or would you rather suggest that people look at a stylized PDF published on Mountain Project in preparation for situations in which lives hang in the balance?

Nolan Huther · · Clarkson University · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 607

RT- I see clearly that you do profess instructions over this manual. Perhaps have a nice header in this hypothetical document in nice, bold letters saying "The material described in this document is not a substitution for proper medical training provided by professionals" or something of the like? That would remove many of my reservations

Edit: I also like the page of links to professional organizations as well

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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