Alpine butterfly bend to join 2 ropes

Man, the flat overhand really is one of those topics that makes people "well, actually!", isn't it?

I've read about the alpine butterfly as a clever way to isolate a double fishermans to prevent it from jamming. Programming has made me averse to clever solutions, but I didn't even pause to just consider an alpine butterfly bend.

NegativeK wrote:I've read about the alpine butterfly as a clever way to isolate a double fishermans to prevent it from jamming. Programming has made me averse to clever solutions, but I didn't even pause to just consider an alpine butterfly bend.

Whoa you just gave me an idea for an easier way to tie the butterfly bend! I can't believe I didn't think of it before:

Tie a quick EDK to join the ropes, with little tail. Then tie the alpine butterfly as a loop, with the EDK in the middle of the loop (I use the 'twist' method). Then finally, untie the EDK (or not, but it will be more prone to snagging).

For me, this method would be easy and reliable, and I can't imagine how I would tie the butterfly incorrectly this way. It might even be faster than an EDK, since I don't have to worry about dressing it perfectly, tying a backup EDK right next to it, and leaving super long tails.

I just might consider using the butterfly now.. Though the standard criticisms of using a less common knot apply- harder for people to check, less of a prove track record, etc..

Just to add, in my own experience, there is precedent for knot innovation in climbing being beneficial: the knot I always use as a stopper ar the end if my ropes (i.e. when rappelling) is the Ashley Stopper. It is far superior to any other knot I've seen for this purpose, being very bulky, never loosens even when tied sloppy, and I can tie it in a few seconds. Most climbers I know use a double or triple overhand for this purpose, and those knots need to be well tightened, and I've seen them come undone (in one local gym where they use a double overhand at the bottom of top ropes, they used to come undone all the time, until they started using zip ties to hold it together).

So I do believe there are opportunities for improvement as far as the knots climbers use. Most climbers in my experience are not very knowledgeable on knots, and rock climbing is still young enough as a popular endeavor that I'm not convinced we've settled on the 'best' way for anything. Certainly doesn't compare with something like sailing, where most of these knots have been tested in a variety of demanding situations for many centuries.. (albeit, with very different rope and cord materials until recently).

Quotes from the link to the Animated Knots site's presentation of the Ashley Stopper Knot:

"In climbing, the Double Overhand is more widely used - for good reason - it is far less likely to just shake loose."

"The knot is satisfyingly easy to tie with a diagram in front of you. It is also surprisingly easy to get it wrong - as I found out the hard way by getting the animation wrong initially."

Hmm...maybe not the best example for advancing the cause of knot innovation. Me, I'll be sticking with the double overhand...

Dan Africk wrote:Just to add, in my own experience, there is precedent for knot innovation in climbing being beneficial: the knot I always use as a stopper ar the end if my ropes (i.e. when rappelling) is the Ashley Stopper. It is far superior to any other knot I've seen for this purpose, being very bulky, never loosens even when tied sloppy, and I can tie it in a few seconds. Most climbers I know use a double or triple overhand for this purpose, and those knots need to be well tightened, and I've seen them come undone (in one local gym where they use a double overhand at the bottom of top ropes, they used to come undone all the time, until they started using zip ties to hold it together). So I do believe there are opportunities for improvement as far as the knots climbers use. Most climbers in my experience are not very knowledgeable on knots, and rock climbing is still young enough as a popular endeavor that I'm not convinced we've settled on the 'best' way for anything. Certainly doesn't compare with something like sailing, where most of these knots have been tested in a variety of demanding situations for many centuries.. (albeit, with very different rope and cord materials until recently).

I agree with rgolds assessment of that knot. The only thing it has going for it is it's bulkyness. I just tried playing around with the knot for about 30min, and read through the Animated Knots page on it. I was able to come up with 2 different ways of incorrectly tying the knot (one unintentionally). Not only is it hard to tie correctly, it can "shake loose" when tied correctly, as rgold mentioned. It is also hard to inspect once tied, and if it is not snugged up properly (in 3 steps!), it is not secure and can capsize when loaded (as a stopper).

This Ashley's stopper knot is about as bad a choice as I can imagine. Second only to a figure 8.

I've said it before... Don't F*!k around with knots. Their subtleties can kill you. If you are going to use a non-standard knots, you better know all of the subtleties.

Just for the record, I quoted the site that illustrated the knot. I did no analysis myself; the quotes speak for themselves.

rgold wrote:Just for the record, I quoted the site that illustrated the knot. I did no analysis myself; the quotes speak for themselves.

The quotes IN CONTEXT speak for themselves:

"Uses: The Ashley Stopper Knot is the name now commonly given to a knot described by Ashley as the Oysterman's Stopper (ABOK # 526, p 86). It is an excellent bulky stopper knot. Ashley's description is that the knot "...has three rim parts, and these are quite symmetrical when viewed from the underside". This 3-lobed structure can be seen in the final Frame."

"Similar Knots: The Ashley Stopper Knot should be compared to other knots commonly used as stoppers including the Double Overhand, and the Figure 8. In boating, the Figure 8 is particularly common. However, it has a tendency to come undone far too readily and the Stevedore deserves to be better known. In climbing, the Double Overhand is more widely used - for good reason - it is far less likely to just shake loose. It also forms the basis for tying the Double Fisherman's and the Poacher's or Double Overhand Noose. For slippery ropes the EStar Stopper is the best." (emphasis added)

"Advantages: As a bulky, secure, stopper it deserves to be more widely known. It is far less prone to shake loose than the figure 8 knot and is the bulkiest of the simple stoppers."

rgold your previous comment is highly misleading. It's disappointing, given how helpful and informative most of your posts are. You imply that the site says the double overhand is less likely to shake loose than the Ashley stopper, when it clearly means less likely to shake loose than a figure 8 stopper.

cyclestupor wrote:I agree with rgolds assessment of that knot

Then you either didn't read the site very carefully, or are disregarding the fact that it's a blatant misquote.

Unlike both of you, I've actually used this knot in practice, many times, and I have to disagree. I've used it for dozens of rappels outside and probably hundreds of times in the gym (I like to maintain a good habit of tying a knot in the end of the lead rope). It has never slipped in the slightest, even when tied loosely and sloppily, or in brand new ropes, and I often don't even bother to tighten it well because it simply isn't necessary. I find it very easy and fast to tie, but I'll grant you that that my friends seem to have a harder time learning it. I've even seen incorrectly tied versions of this knot that I would trust more than a double overhand.

Btw I've also used this same knot for other non-climbing uses: As a stopper on the bungee cord for my Mammut realization shorts, when the plastic piece at the end came off; And in some thin cord I used to replace the spiral binding on a small notebook (to keep the cord from pulling through the pages). Neither has ever come loose, and I use the harness shorts every week, have washed them several times, etc..

Anyway, people can use whatever knot they want, but if you've ever questioned the reliability of a loose double overhand knot and wondered if there was something better, I highly encourage you to check out this knot. Read about it yourself, and try it for yourself, rather than reading misquotes and BS on Mountain Project, and see what you think. Personally when I have a long free-hanging rappel, and I know my rope doesn't reach the ground, I feel a lot better knowing I have this knot tied in the end. I trust this vastly more than a double overhand any day..

By the way I know we're off topic here (apologies to the OP), but I'll just add that as mentioned in the knot description above, the Stevedor is also a good stopper knot. I personally find the Ashley easier to tie, and I find the bulkiness reassuring, but if you find the Ashley confusing, you might find the Stevedor easier.

Dan Africk wrote: rgold your previous comment is highly misleading. It's disappointing, given how helpful and informative most of your posts are. You imply that the site says the double overhand is less likely to shake loose than the Ashley stopper, when it clearly means less likely to shake loose than a figure 8 stopper.

I didn't read it that way and am not convinced, but admit that the writing is ambiguous, as it isn't clear what "more widely used" refers to, i.e. more widely used than what---the knot which is the subject of the piece or the knot mentioned as a boating alternative.

The separate comment that comes later saying the Ashley knot is far more likely to shake loose than a figure eight seemed to me to be an additional comparison to the figure eight. If the comment which I took to be an unfavorable comparison of the Ashley knot to the double overhand was in fact a comparison to the figure eight, then I don't understand why exactly the same comparison would be repeated a few lines later. Perhaps just bad writing.

There is no question about the other quote mentioning the ease of improper tying.

Personally, I've never seen a double overhand (actually, I use a triple overhand) come anywhere near undoing under rappel circumstances.

I suppose I can see how the wording could be confusing, but I'm pretty sure you're reading that wrong. It doesn't make sense for the author to repeatedly praise the Ashley Stopper as an 'excellent, secure stopper knot which deserves to be more widely known' (I'm combining / paraphrasing, see quotes above), but also say that it shakes loose 'far more' than a double overhand. It doesn't make sense, because that's not what he's saying.

I think you may find it more clear if you read the description on the double overhand stopper page:

"Other Stopper Knots: The Figure 8 may be the most widely used, especially in boating, but it tends to come undone. The Ashley Stopper Knot and the Stevedore both deserve to be more widely used and known. The Matthew Walker requires three or four strand rope because it is tied with the separated strands. Therefore, after the strands are reassembled and whipped it cannot be just "untied". Its greatest use may be in smart installations such as rope handrails. For slippery ropes the EStar Stopper is the best."

In the interest of honesty, I should mention that this page also describes the double overhand as a 'reliable, moderately large, stopper knot'. And I'll admit it's adequate if properly tightened and with plenty of tail. But I'm not about to ignore my own experience and observations of that knot, and I find the Ashley far more secure, especially comparing a loose Ashley to a loose double overhand.

Dan Africk wrote: Then you either didn't read the site very carefully, or are disregarding the fact that it's a blatant misquote.

Ok. I went back and read through the Animated Knots page a few more times. The wording in that section is quite ambiguous, but I am convinced that you are correct Dan. It is the figure 8 that "shakes loose" not the Ashleys Stopper. It is a bit unfair to call rgold's quote a "blatant misquote" though. I also tried tying the Ashleys knot losely, and shaking the hell out of it, and it doesn't slip at all.

However, it is easy to tie it incorrectly and, as i mentioned before, it will capsize when tied incorrectly, or when snugged up incorrectly. I don't know if strength is compromised when it capsizes, but any knot that capsizes so easily worries me. I also find it difficult to inspect, despite its "3-lobed" structure.

I feel strongly that knots should not be taken for granted. There are many subtleties to them. There is also great value in using a small set of commonly used knots that all climbers are familiar with.

The Alpine butterfly deserves more respect, and I will bet the only 'advantage' to the EDK is misunderstood and exaggerated. There are three aspects of the knot that affect ease in pulling: One, the total circumference the knot presents, that might wedge in some constriction or groove; two, whether the pulled rope is centered in that profile, or lies to one side, so that the "flatter" side slides over irregularities better; three, whether the leading edge of the knot presents a square face, which is most prone to catching, or an angled face, where the lip that tends to catch can tip or rotate under moderate force on the rope to cause release from the obstruction. Using two different size ropes, tying each quickly reveals some surprises - the ABK actually presents a far smaller profile than the EDK, suggesting in some parallel cracks it may not jam as easily. When dragged across right-angled inside corners, the EDK does manage to navigate better, the 'flat' side/angled face making the difference. Narrow deep grooves are going to snag all manners of knots, as are chockstones in chimneys or wide cracks. I will probably reluctantly use the EDK, with caution, where jamming potential seems high, but otherwise the ABK where rappels look clear and open, as its tested strength, security against loosening, slipping, or inadvertent untying are very good. and yet it unties easily after weighting. Older options like Fisherman's which can be very hard to untie, yet offer a Stopper Knot-like profile, seem poor, as does the old Sheet or Double Sheet Bend, alas bulky, prone to capsizing without backup knots, and large profile. The DSB's only benefit is where significantly dissimilar rope diameters must be joined, but only one orientation is reliable.
Maybe the shorthand advisory is: EDK to join two rappel ropes, with caution to leave generous (8-12") tails, and to fully tighten before committing onto the rappel.

Just tie a Zeppelin Bend and be done with it. Easy to tie, super strong, and is small in size....what's not to love.

Bryan L wrote:

Just tie a Zeppelin Bend and be done with it. Easy to tie, super strong, and is small in size....what's not to love.

I'm curious, do you actually use the Zeppelin bend when rappelling?

I agree that it's a great and underappreciated knot, and I've thought many times about it's potential use in rappelling, but I haven't heard of any climber ever using it for this (or really any) purpose. So while it seems like a good idea on paper, and I don't imagine any problem except maybe being more prone to getting stuck, I don't want to be the first to try that experiment..

(I do use it for a variety of other purposes in non-climbing contexts)

I think the Zeppelin bend is good for cordelettes that you tie up at home and more or less leave that way.  As a rappel knot, I suspect that the ends protruding at right angles to the linked lines will create friction if not hangups, but the main problem is that the Zepplin doesn't seem to me to be very easy to tie correctly, and the process isn't something you want to be doing under any kind of stress. I'm no knot expert, but I seem to be more knowledgeable and more competent than a lot of climbers I meet, and honestly, if the knot is giving me a little trouble, then it is going to be a big problem for quite a few people,

Question a climbing partner posed to me the other day. Why don't we use a square knot when rappelling? From his experience on a ship he said the square knot should never come undone. Seems like a decent enough knot and simple. Easy to add a backup to the tails. 

Im still sticking to my overhand bend though. 

Just use a 140m rope and forget about the knots.

Dan Africk wrote: ... as long is it's well-dressed, with very long tails and a second EDK tied as a backup, its perfectly safe. 

Per Mauthner, the second EDK tied as backup does not increase the strength or safety of the EDK.  Properly dressing and tightening each of the four strands entering/exiting the knot individually does reduce the likelihood of a capsize.  

I can't provide a citation, as this was taught during an in-person SAR training.  I recall him saying that his tests showed the second knot actually decreasing the efficacy of the knot, but I don't recall the details.

Dan Africk wrote: Whoa you just gave me an idea for an easier way to tie the butterfly bend! I can't believe I didn't think of it before: Tie a quick EDK to join the ropes, with little tail. Then tie the alpine butterfly as a loop, with the EDK in the middle of the loop (I use the 'twist' method). Then finally...

I have done this when fixing, joining single strand rap ropes off steep lines.  If you leave the EDK it gives you a convenient and strong loop you can clip into while passing the knot.  

That's the only reason I can see to ever use some variation of the butterfly on undamaged rappel ropes.

Otherwise, EDK, long tails, dress and tighten each strand individually.  Done.