Did you take some gear from Wall Street?

When it started raining today we bailed on two routes and went into Moab. When we returned about an hour later it was gone. Please let me know if you took our stuff, we'll give you a six pack of beer for it.

Thanks!

Bummer! I hope you get your gear back and good on you guys for showing up the same day to retrieve your gear. I can't believe anybody would try to argue that you deserved it! Dave, you sound like a smelly b-hole!

Dave, maybe the responsible thing is not to climb in sandstone in the rain, thus preserving the climb so everyone can enjoy them in the future.

I can see Dave sitting in his car eagerly rubbing his hands together prior to rainstorms at his local crag.

Dave Schultz wrote: No real experience with desert rock

"No experience with the rock or the area or the weather there or anything, but I'm gonna be a massive dick!!"

Dave, depends on how hard it rains. It can jack up the rock for a full day if it rains hard for 30 minutes.

Dave Schultz wrote: Haha. Not really. I actually don't personally use booty ... i always try to return it (preffered) or give it to my partner. There have been a rash of these (and stick clips being lost, normally at rumney), so I thought I would throw my (jerkish or sarcastic, or both) comment out there.

Haha you're all good man! The fact that you actually try to reach out puts you ahead of a lot of the dickwads here on MP. The rubbing of hands together is just the first thought that goes through my head whenever I hear people on here fervently trying to push the "if you leave your gear alone, it's mine" mentality that is all too common in the climbing community. Frankly it's bullshit and it's theft, akin to taking a rope and draws left at the base of a climb because someone ran down to their car to get that cam they forgot. I will personally never be alright with the idea that a full set of gear left on a single pitch climb (ESPECIALLY in a sandstone situation where rain was in the picture, or any time that there was obviously a weather or rescue event) is anywhere even remotely close to the same as finding a leaver draw/biner halfway up a climb or a buried cam halfway up the 5th pitch of some route.

That all being said... remember rule #1 ;)

Sandstone is tricky... wetness can take a bit to sink in and really affect the integrity of the matrix, but when it starts sprinkling or raining on you most people just choose to bail rather than risk the nasty prospect of gear ripping, holds breaking, etc. If it's a 20 minute sprinkle, it's probably cool as long as the sun comes out afterwards. A 3 hour downpour.... you're probably skunked for at least a day or two.

No offense Dave, but I don't know if you are an a-hole or an idiot or both but you know that saying about duck's right? If you look like a duck and sound like a duck....

Dave Schultz wrote: Could have stuck around the area and waited.

Perhaps.

Dave Schultz wrote: Could have finished the route (timing wrt the rain obviously plays a part on this).

Sounds like you have no experience with Navajo sandstone. It doesn't take much rain to impact its integrity. Props to the OP for bailing.

Dave Schultz wrote: Could have left a note at the base (if this is a common problem a laminated note saying you'll return might be a good idea).

Yes, everyone carries a laminating machine. Really?!!! I'm having visions of ducks.

Dave Schultz wrote: Going to moab is abandoning it. Especially if someone was able to get back and get the gear.

Moab is 10 minutes away. Personally, I wouldn't have gone to Moab unless it was really socked in. But, I'm not sure how severe the weather was. Someone with poor wet rock ethics (important on Navajo sandstone) could have done it very quickly. Props to the op for giving some time to see what the weather was going to do.

Dave Schultz wrote: Wet desert climbing rules and concerns might have meant that the people who got the gear violated those rules/concerns, and if they did, then the op deserves his gear back (based on conserving the desert rock);

Finally, an intelligent comment.

Dave Schultz wrote: but if the op hung around moab with dry enough rock, than that's his fault.

I'm leaning toward Duck.

Dave Schultz wrote: ... No real experience with desert rock, so I sincerely hope the op was not swindled by some dudes climbing when they should not be ... Separate question, sry to derail, but, does a brief rain event (returning about an hour later) affect the sandstone that much? (No troll. For real curious. A very short rain event in my experience not on sandstone barely affects the wetness of the rock, so does it really cause the infamous sandstone problem with such a short event? ...).

It really depends on the sandstone's mineralogy and geologic history. Geological knowledge is important; talk to your local climbers and geologists if you don't already know, and do *before* you get on wet sandstone. My training provided by expert geologists in a certain industry where major money depends on knowing your geology; I haven't quite forgotten all of it yet :).

One can climb at places like HCR even in rain no problem. That sandstone might as well be granite because of how the rock was laid down and because of what cements the grains. The cement can be altered over geologic time, say if solutions crystalize in the pores between the mineral grains, or if the sandstone has been partially metamorphosed. If I remember, HCR is a marine sandstone cemented with a very strong cement (maybe quartz?).

Places like Red Rocks (Vegas), however, the depositional environments may or may not be similar to HCR, and the history is certainly different. For example, you can see cross-bedding in the Black Corridor, which is a clear signal that you're climbing aeolian sands (deposited by wind, not water). The rock grains are typically not strongly cemented, which makes the rock in bulk more friable when wet. Around Colorado, some sandstones are eroded material from the Ancestral Rockies with an interesting history, some are marine layers from the Interior Seaway, some are great fossilized sand dunes, so they vary and the rule of thumb is to let them dry fully before climbing.

Desert sands... they're often barely rock instead of mud when dry, let alone when rained on. No climbing unless you're sure it's dry. The OP did the right thing to bail, Utah definitely falls into this category. The guys climbing in the rain are assholes.

Wow, is this an east /West thing? I almost do not want to wade in to this,
but I think jumping on a Fellow climber who walks the long walk is wrong.
I hate to admit that I stalked the two parties contributions
& found both Dave & Jeff to be strong members of the tribe.

Jeff of many 'S' (es), the OP, was counting on the climbing area being deserted.
He gambled with his gear. He lost.
Knowing that most climbers believe in fair play and good karma, Jeff then posted a reasonable compromise.
I'm not condoning the actions of the gear grabbers.
I'm also not condoning leave gear unattended.

Still, we as a community can build it up or tear it down it is our choice

Greg D,
The Duck post, while brilliant, was a bit over the line. It rings to old bell;
It takes a Duck to recognize another Duck!
( ho, yeah ! I'm a a Mallard too )

Jeff Sssss wrote:When it started raining today we bailed on two routes and went into Moab. When we returned about an hour later it was gone. Please let me know if you took our stuff, we'll give you a six pack of beer for it. Thanks!

I'm not skilled at the formate getting the Quote box around each line to try to highlight
What you think can be taken as azzhat Dom?
Was The OP Top Roping TWO routes? That's how I read it.
( nttawwt, wait. . . I hate that, . . .not that there is anything wrong with that)

Then they left the area entirely!
You have to retreat a long way from the climbing to go to town.
I have desert sandstone, soft rock experience.
When a cloud burst happens it was forecast as a possibility
or you can see the clouds coming in.

The new level of entitlement of climbers is stunning this is not the Gym or the the Cotton Woods
It is not the Gunks where, when it rains we all used to work together retrieving others gear to save from having a disaster.
It is a wild space where due diligence is rewarded and slackers lose.
I hope that the thieves get up the moxie to discribe what they found & did.

You stay with your gear, not go for lattes...lessons learned?

Michael Schneider wrote: You have to retreat a long way from the climbing to go to town.

It's 8 miles and around 10 minutes to go from Wall St to the main drag of Moab. While I'm sure Mr Schneider has been around Moab and understands that there is 0 approach time and only 10 minutes of driving, but all the other rude people from cowtown NY can keep their useless opinions to themselves.

Mitchelle Kelly wrote: It's 8 miles and around 10 minutes to go from Wall St to the main drag of Moab. While I'm sure Mr Schneider has been around Moab and understands that there is 0 approach time and only 10 minutes of driving, but all the other rude people from cowtown NY can keep their useless opinions to themselves.

Ummm, Saratoga isn't a cowtown, it's a horsetown.

Yup, not as big of horse country as New Jersey though!

I really wish I'd taken my own advice 1st

Tylerpratt wrote:Yup, not as big of horse country as New Jersey though!

...

Michael Schneider wrote:

Fancy pics from a guy who says he can't use the quote function :)

Hey?

Tylerpratt wrote:Yup, not as big of horse country as New Jersey though!

Harder than it looks 10 problems 4 marked by trees..

Mitchelle Kelly wrote: It's 8 miles and around 10 minutes to go from Wall St to the main drag of Moab. While I'm sure Mr Schneider has been around Moab and understands that there is 0 approach time and only 10 minutes of driving, but all the other rude people from cowtown NY can keep their useless opinions to themselves.

My google-phoo is weak but Im not backing' down, I think it was a clown act To swipe the gear.
and as for Tyler Pratt well Im always around to show off the areas that Morgan has rejected.