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Yelling at Tahquitz/Suicide


Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,523
Sean wrote:

if you still see life critical skills as "graceful" touches, your mindset is way off in the wrong.  whoev played part in misleading you, or in rushing you onto multi's evidently without adequate prep, hadn't done you any favors ...... and aren't you supposed to be well-versed in precise voice comm anyway while single pitch cragging with other parties around?  or are you just as sloppy and dangerous in those situ's too? ... absolutely no excuse to have no inkling about effective comm on a multi, or to botch that bec still too "tricky" or too difficult to "focus" on ... and dismissing all voice comm ... on acct of sloppy comm to advocate a silent mode ... that's a whole other level of shithead dumbfuckery

Hyperbole-ize much?

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,523

Grace is an antidote to the mind-crowding alarms evoked by yelling in a way beyond just raising the volume of one's voice to be heard.  I mean the yelling that expresses or results in anger, panic, shame, etc..  Those emotions make it challenging if not impossible for some to think rationally through a problem.  Grace is very much what I like in a partner for safety's sake. 

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,811

that's grace under pressure

she repeatedly referred to effective comm as being extra "elegant" and "graceful" like advanced nuances that one should strive to be proficient at like part of lifelong learning.  that's absolutely false.  you should have a working effective comm system before you ever leave the ground and onto a multi

plenty of people don't take effective comm seriously, enough that it evidently presented danger to others as indicated by this very discussion

always a plus to have the trait of having ice water in one's veins, and so is having the correct mindset about what one's doing

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,523

Negative judgment, as has crept into posts here and there, tend to short circuit .... no matter how effective the comms might be.

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,811

effective comm isn't a "new skill" to be acquired after an incident on a multi.  it's what you were supposed to have already acquired proficiency for and bring onto the climb

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,523

I generally agree with that.

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,811

and no, not all negative judgement regarding that post.  gave criticism but also pointed to better alternatives too.  comm skills could've been practiced beforehand, like many other aspects.  many don't bother to, or don't know enough to know to do that.  she indicated being in over her head, already a red flag.  only 6 wks of climbing and onto a Tahquitz multi, how could one not end up over tasked.  beginners often rely on the "better" judgement of their more experienced partner, so the issues might not be all on her.  leader opting for a harder variation instd of sticking to plan with a first timer in tow, that sounded ill-advised too

besides, she hasn't responded yet.  i have no reason to think overly negatively of her.  to be fair, she might not be like that other foul-mouthed can't-own-up-to-shit know-it-all-wannabe who deserves every bit of disdain fired back his way

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,523

My read of sewing up the 5.10 was that the leader did not realize it was off route.  Still, the seasoned would say to not take a beginner up a route the more experienced does not know well.

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,280
Kat Hessen wrote:

I was frustrated by my leader's choice to place pro all the way up a 5.10 variation on a 5.8 climb, but in his defense he didn't know (or notice) that he went off route. I've been climbing for six weeks, and while I can problem-solve my way up certain higher grade moves, overhanging cracks are not yet in the repertoire. My bad for not knowing how to prussik though -- I have since learned. 

I guess my point was that when you're a beginning climber, and you find yourself in a situation where you see the task at hand growing beyond your skill and knowledge, it's tricky to focus on communicating "through the ropes" or with elegant abbreviated lingo. I learned my lesson, acquired new skills, and 100% agree that climbers should strive for seamless and graceful interpersonal communication, on and off the rock. This is partly why I enjoy alpine -- the serenity of stoic mountain combined with the intensity of dynamic climbing is one hell of a drug.

Sounds like your leader placed extra pro for you to pull on if you got stuck? People on here will like to make you think you have to take some sort of week long course to learn how to prussik but really you just have to use your logical brain. The prussik is simple and it sounds like you know it now but there's lots of different ways to stay independent and safe and the best one depends on the situation.

Brent Kelly · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 35

Haven't read through this thread, but having had to deal with these communication - and miscommunication - issues, as well as the anxiety and accidents they result in...

... sounds to me like there is a sizable opportunity for someone to innovate and/or market small ultraportable 2 way radios. 

Similar to the standard 2 way radio walkie talkies, but smaller (headlamp sized?) at the expense of range and other features seems reasonable.

Any radio comms experts out there who can advise on feasibility?

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,280
Brent Kelly wrote:

Haven't read through this thread, but having had to deal with these communication - and miscommunication - issues, as well as the anxiety and accidents they result in...

... sounds to me like there is a sizable opportunity for someone to innovate and/or market small ultraportable 2 way radios. 

Similar to the standard 2 way radio walkie talkies, but smaller (headlamp sized?) at the expense of range and other features seems reasonable.

Any radio comms experts out there who can advise on feasibility?

This would be nice but I fear people get too reliant on radio and don't know what the hell to do when the batteries go dead.

Sean · · Oak Park, CA · Joined Dec 2004 · Points: 1,811
Bill Lawry wrote:

My read of sewing up the 5.10 was that the leader did not realize it was off route.  Still, the seasoned would say to not take a beginner up a route the more experienced does not know well.

yep, going off-route usu not a good scenario with a multi first timer.  could get away with it, to have the novice passing the "test" with flying colors, or to luck out figuring things out, like to intuit an unknown procedure on the spot and happen to get it right.  but if reality matters, with a novice and limited familiarity, there's also no telling in what unhelpful or even dangerous ways the first timer might react.  not really their fault either, more so on the leader for putting a novice into an unfamiliar precarious situ.  if someone gets hurt or worse, it's not much comfort to have a relevation afterward about this or that new skill or procedure that could've prevented disaster.  good that the experience thru an avoidable situ led someone to pick up another skill and all, but glad that not knowing that when it first mattered didn't cost that person or someone else

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 275
Brent Kelly wrote:

Haven't read through this thread, but having had to deal with these communication - and miscommunication - issues, as well as the anxiety and accidents they result in...

... sounds to me like there is a sizable opportunity for someone to innovate and/or market small ultraportable 2 way radios. 

Similar to the standard 2 way radio walkie talkies, but smaller (headlamp sized?) at the expense of range and other features seems reasonable.

Any radio comms experts out there who can advise on feasibility?

It's blasphemous on MP to mention using radios for communicating on climbs. You shall be relegated to the "noob" bin or the "learn rope tugs" bin or the "whatever will you do if the radios stop working?" bin.  I don't use them, but wouldn't rule them out. 

Matt Desenberg · · North Berwick, ME · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 160
Bill Lawry wrote:

Grace is an antidote to the mind-crowding alarms evoked by yelling in a way beyond just raising the volume of one's voice to be heard.  I mean the yelling that expresses or results in anger, panic, shame, etc..  Those emotions make it challenging if not impossible for some to think rationally through a problem.  Grace is very much what I like in a partner for safety's sake. 

"What?!"

"GRACE!!"

"Grace! She died thirty years ago."

"They want YOU to say GRACE!"

Name that film, win a cookie.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 275
Matt Desenberg wrote:

"What?!"

"GRACE!!"

"Grace! She died thirty years ago."

"They want YOU to say GRACE!"

Name that film, win a cookie.

Something with George Burns?

Bill Lawry · · New Mexico · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,523
Matt Desenberg wrote:

"What?!"

"GRACE!!"

"Grace! She died thirty years ago."

"They want YOU to say GRACE!"

Name that film, win a cookie.

Christmas Vacation - I like the eggnog scene, maybe because I resemble the sentiment.  ;)

Matt Desenberg · · North Berwick, ME · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 160

"Can I refill your eggnog? Get you something to eat? Take you out to the forest, leave you for dead? "

corpse · · jtree area · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 5

this thread needs some TL;DR:s

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,280
Kat Hessen wrote:

I got my 10 min prussik lesson up a tree at the base of that climb. I only posted to agree with the OP, but also acknowledge that I am part of the problem. I felt I had to raise my voice to communicate with my belayer who was out of sight, and with my friends also on the wall whose anchor I had to be lowered down to for a rap. I've thought about walkie-talkies, as anything MacGyveresque appeals to me enormously, but I guess they're not that commonly used in climbing. 

(As for pulling on gear -- in order to get to the gear, I had to pass the overhanging crux, which is where I would repeatedly take a fall, swing out into the void, have to be lowered all the way down and redo 2/3 of that pitch to get back to the crux. After four times, I was exhausted. Wasn't a scary situation, and we weren't screaming (except for the first time I took that swing -- holy mother of Bob), just raising our voices to arrange an alternative bail.)

I'm really happy Mountain Project exists, to debate and analyze situations that happen in the mountains, and get good advice from seasoned climbers. I'm not insulted if someone calls me out on doing something stupid --heck, the other day I enthusiastically told my partner how good her "offwidth technique" was...we were climbing a chimney. Being a noob is humbling, but I prefer to owe up to it, rather than keep quiet and pretend I don't fuck up. If other beginners are lurking in these forums, it's maybe nice to see that mistakes are made, and lessons are learned -- not just at a gym, but at local crags too. Safety above all, but being a beginner is not a mistake in itself. Knowing that other climbers are bothered by loud teams at Tahquitz is useful info to me, and I'll be conscious of that in the future. I'm still going climbing though.

Kat, from knowing where you were and the repeated falling and lowering, I'm surprised the rope wasn't damaged in the process. Was it?

Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 310

Kat.....  I have been reading....   Don't you worry one bit about yelling, screaming etc....  It is all part of the game. 

Just keep on having fun in the sun.



Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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