The Nose with Three?


Original Post
Fringepaste · · SoCal · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0

Based on everyone's experiences with the nature of this route, what would be the most ideal and practical method for climbing it in a group of three? Specifically, the lead line, haul line, tag line, zip line and lower out line combinations and/or exclusions? We are not trying to break any speed records, packing for five days, looking for something simple with the least amount of ropes, if feasible.

Jason Todd · · Cody, WY · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 643
20 kN · · Hawaii · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,128
Fringepaste wrote:Based on everyone's experiences with the nature of this route, what would be the most ideal and practical method for climbing it in a group of three? Specifically, the lead line, haul line, tag line, zip line and lower out line combinations and/or exclusions? We are not trying to break any speed records, packing for five days, looking for something simple with the least amount of ropes, if feasible.
There are several options. One would be the leader finishes the pitch and starts hauling. The second starts jugging and cleaning. The third runs as fast up the rope as he can, and as soon as he is there he takes over leading. The hauling is then at a standstill since the former leader is now belaying. When the second gets up, he finishes the hauling. The risk here is if the bag gets stuck, someone has to go down and fix it since there is no second to fix it, but you can tell if that will be an issue or not. The idea is that basically you're climbing as a standard party of two on a free climb, and the third person (who can rotate in and out) has the sole job of hauling, this way the party as a whole can concentrate on moving up and not on hauling, and the guy who leads will be more rested as he dident have to deal with any hauling before he heads out.

There are other options which are even faster, but they are more complex. The idea is to keep the leader going up as often as possible as you're not making progress when the leader is idle.
Fringepaste · · SoCal · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0

So this method would require two lead lines, one haul line and a zip line to send up the newly cleaned gear to the new person leading?

Ryan Hamilton · · Orem · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 0
Fringepaste wrote:So this method would require two lead lines, one haul line and a zip line to send up the newly cleaned gear to the new person leading?
Yep. I've only done smaller aid routes with 3 and it doesn't seem to get the leader going up any quicker because oftentimes the routes are so gear intensive that the leader can't leave the belay until the rack is there. The only real thing is that it would break up the hauling work a little more so that may keep everyone a little more fresh and full of energy.
Kauait · · Sandy Utah · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 0

A rope per person. No more. And yes a thin line for your bag to lower it out, the length of that line is dependant of the route your doing.. more lines more problems. Keep it simple.

20 kN · · Hawaii · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,128
Fringepaste wrote:So this method would require two lead lines, one haul line and a zip line to send up the newly cleaned gear to the new person leading?
Yes, but I would bring two static ropes instead of two dynamic. You can get some pretty burly 9mm static ropes and jugging on 9mm static is probably safer than 10mm dynamic. Plus it's easier to jug too. As other said, these many ropes start to become a big tangle mess quickly, so dont bring anything additional. Keep it to the minimum required to accomplish the climb efficiently. Remember, the key is getting the leader out and onto the next pitch ASAP. Everyone in the party should constantly be asking "what can I do to get the leader moving?".
Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 0

Given that three guys should be faster than two, and given that you are planning on 5 days, and given that you even have to ask this question, I would have to guess that you are big wall beginners.

Given that the Nose is a VERY POPULAR and CROWDED route, and that the bail rate is easily 50%, I would highly suggest the Column or Leaning Tower.

I don't mean to be a dick, and I understand the Nose is a much sought after route and your desire to climb it, but I just can't see that spending five days on this 5.10, A2 route, and being passed by the dozen parties that will undoubtedly pass you, will be much fun.

Fringepaste · · SoCal · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0

Mark,

We have done Washington Column and Leaning Tower. Both went down pretty smoothly. However, we did those as two. Looking to maximize the efficiency of three.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 0

Okay, that's good. Take the show to Lurking Fear, learn the techniques for three there and then go do the Nose in 3 days.

Fringepaste · · SoCal · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0

We based our hauling system and anchor setup off of your published docs. Do you have any absolutes that you apply to three man teams that are as worked out as everything else you have put out there?

Jplotz · · Wenatchee, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 505

Why can't the 3rd jug up the haul line to the anchor, then help haul as the second cleans the pitch. One lead line. One haul line as any twosome would have. And a light lower out line.

We saw a three some do this successfully on the Nose last year. Yes they were slower, but compensated by climbing long into the night, and woke up way before everyone else did. They did atill manage to cause some backups though. But overall they were efficient with this method.

Fringepaste · · SoCal · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0

That method would work but it doesn't really utilize the three man team to its full potential.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 0

I did a couple routes with a three man team years ago but haven't put much thought into it recently.

Is the goal to be fast or efficient and have fun? These days, a three man team is a "party wall". I'm planning a party wall in my future but it will be on a route that is rarely done.
The trouble with 3 on the Nose is that so much of it is free climbing, the third man jugging the free hanging rope won't be a hell of a lot faster than the guy cleaning the pitch. Eliminating the 3rd man sort of eliminates the need to have him help with the hauling since your bags will be 1/3 lighter without his kit.

So okay, off the top of my head, two lead lines and one static haul line. The 3rd jugs the haul line, dragging the second lead line. The leader and second haul the bag and the 3rd starts leading. On the Nose though, by the time the bags reach the anchor, so will the 2nd, freeing up the lead line and negating the need for a second lead rope.

More later, since I'm actually going out and climbing El Cap right now!

Btw, anyone want to buy a lightly used (2 routes) Metolius El Cap Haul bag?

Fringepaste · · SoCal · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0

What is the general consensus regarding jugging on 9mm static lines. I wouldn't jugg a 9mm dynamic unless I really had to. Any brainiacs know if the static qualities makes any difference?

Ryan Hamilton · · Orem · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 0

I don't think I would have any problems jugging a 9mm static line. Never done, it, but it seems like a fine idea.

Aaron O · · Seattle, WA · Joined Apr 2011 · Points: 0

I have most often heard of the third person jugging the haul line. If you have good technique, it shouldn't take much time at all for the climber to get to the anchor on the haul line. If you are going to do this make sure you think through the rope work at the pendulums in the Stovelegs, and definitely on the King Swing. Traverse at the gray bands would be interesting as well.

The reason I say that is because with the third jugs the haul line, they are typically detached from the anchors with the bag. On a traverse, it would be a little more complicated and time consuming I would think.

Jplotz · · Wenatchee, WA · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 505

The King Swing and traverse through the gray bands would be super easy actually. On the KS, the leader does the swing fixes the rope at Eagle Ledge, and the second lowers the haulbag down to the leader who docks it at EL. On the fixed leader line, the 2nd and 3rd rap the single strand lead line while "trammed" with a QD on the fixed strand to EL. Super quick and easy.

On the Gray Bands traverse, the bag is typically left at the anchor before the 5th class, move the belay traverse. Leader then combines the next two pitches to the anchor below the Great Roof. The haul line will now run straight down to the bag where you left it docked. The 3rd, who stayed at the bag as well, undocks it and jugs straight up to the anchor.

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 0

A 9 mil would be fine to jug. Don't forget that the Nose has been done a million times and every bad edge has surely been taken care of long ago.

As far as tag lines and lower out lines go, with 70 meter ropes, imho, you don't need them. Keep it Simple! Do the math! Figure it out!

Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 0
Jplotz wrote:The King Swing and traverse through the gray bands would be super easy actually. On the KS, the leader does the swing fixes the rope at Eagle Ledge, and the second lowers the haulbag down to the leader who docks it at EL. On the fixed leader line, the 2nd and 3rd rap the single strand lead line while "trammed" with a QD on the fixed strand to EL. Super quick and easy.
Why waste the time and effort to haul the bag and have the 2nd and 3rd jug to the top of the Boot, only to have to them lower the bag and rap off?

The Leader does the Boot, threads the rope and lowers off, cleaning the pitch, does the swing and anchors at Eagle Ledge.
The other two guys, still on top of Texas Flake, lower out the haul bag and then the 2nd lowers out the 3rd. The second jugs up a bit, cleaning the bolt ladder and then does the swing, the 1st and 3rd toss him a rope as he gets close.

Still easier and faster is the leader does as above, but climbs up to the ledge even with the top of Boot, about 60 feet above Eagle Ledge, placing no gear (he's mostly top roped and only the last moves are hard, which he could aid). The 2nd and 3rd, still on Texas Flake, lower out the haul bag, the second lowers out the 3rd. The second jugs to the top of the Boot, ties into the rope on the anchor side of the Boot anchor, puts his Gri-gri on the other side and lowers himself over.
Really simple, really fast and no ground is lost.
Michael Schneider · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 85

Thanx Mr Hudon!
I've always thought that an evenly skilled team of 3 can have the most fun on the wall.
Splitting up & sharing the wonderful hard work, sharing in the perfume of life
and finding out. That everybody should have A Tube of their own!

Walls. Ya' gotta do a few to get the systems 'beyond dialed in'
when things feel like an incredible amount of work, look to break it down
into more manageable 'segments'; as Mark points out look, to simplify.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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