DIY Ice Tool Spinner Leash COMBO Prussik +...


Original Post
Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158

Leashless style, but backed up noob style. I am not comfortable yet just letting my tools float in the thin atmosphere. The stretchy tether took one go at the sewing machine for me to decide I didn't like the design to begin with, and is another of those single-use pieces of gear like a PAS that only weighs you down. The stretchy will only tire you out.

Enter the cordelette non-spinner leash. It doubles as a Prussik (unhook tool, clip tool, wrap rope, clip!) and PAS, can be quickly untied to form a sling, etc, and weighs next to nothing. Constructed exactly to my reach, no wasted materials. It is a good way to carry an extra locker and biners too.

Ice Tool Spinner Leash COMBO Cordelette, PAS, backup cord.

Thoughts on construction, knots? Alpine butterfly and overhand on a bight.

Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158

Oh, and I'm gonna die cuz I'm not tied in properly! (Overhand loosely placed around belay loop)

I searched for pics of similar systems and found none. This BD post is about their crap leashes, but I think mine solves all the problems.

http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/qc-lab-how-strong-is-the-spinner-leash/qc-lab-how-strong-is-the-spinner-leash.html

Dan L. · · Saratoga Springs, New York · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45

Its hard to know what works for one person and not someone else. I had tried a system like this, but I didn't really enjoy it. I ended up using one of those stretchy givel guys, which work well for me. Within 10 pitches you'll realize if you want to quit your job and design climbing gear or you wasted some cord.

My one suggestion would be to go directly to the pommel of the tool instead of through a biner. There is a "special spot" on the nomics which is for cord, maybe your tools have the same. I find my hand always hits the carabiner and it is uncomfortable.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Aren't spinners named spinners because they spin? I don't see a swivel anywhere on your setup. You have a tether, not a spinner.

Also, just looking at the cluster you've created and thinking about manipulating it wearing gloves or mittens makes me angry. Like angry enough to vote for Trump. Is that what you want?

It's super common to take cordalette and tie it to match the extent of your reach. One end on the tool, the other on your belay loop. I know people who rope solo this way in order to get hands free to deal with their device and knots. I fail to see how your system is an advantage.

Finally, I've seen a lot of dropped tools. In every case, it's from a leashed climber who had to unclip and deal with screws. Leashless people seem to watch their stuff a lot closer. Probably due to being more acutely aware that they can drop stuff.

Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Aren't spinners named spinners because they spin? I don't see a swivel anywhere on your setup. You have a tether, not a spinner. Also, just looking at the cluster you've created and thinking about manipulating it wearing gloves or mittens makes me angry. Like angry enough to vote for Trump.
Trump?!? Now you've gone too far! I named it spinner for the keyword search. A spinner biner or other such nonsense seemed a waste if it can't be used for other things. Carrying a $90 safety rated rescue swivel would be unnecessary. I don't see a cluster. They aren't leashes, as those attach to you. We can settle with DIY tethers. You can TWIST it one way, then twist it the other. Having the biner allows you to quickly create a Prussik or personal anchor very quickly.

Haven't climbed on it yet, just looking for some constructive critique.
Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158
Dan L. wrote:Its hard to know what works for one person and not someone else. I had tried a system like this, but I didn't really enjoy it. I ended up using one of those stretchy givel guys, which work well for me. Within 10 pitches you'll realize if you want to quit your job and design climbing gear or you wasted some cord. My one suggestion would be to go directly to the pommel of the tool instead of through a biner. There is a "special spot" on the nomics which is for cord, maybe your tools have the same. I find my hand always hits the carabiner and it is uncomfortable.
Thanks. I may ditch it when I become more comfortable with leashless climbing. For now it seemed multi-functional. I want to keep the biner for the quickness of adjustment between tether, Prussik, and pas. I will watch for hand/biner interaction.

Not sure I want further detail on your Nomics special spot... Heh.
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Faulted Geologist wrote: Trump?!? Now you've gone too far! I named it spinner for the keyword search. A spinner biner or other such nonsense seemed a waste if it can't be used for other things. Carrying a $90 safety rated rescue spin thing would be unnecessary. I don't see a cluster. They aren't leashes, as those attach to you. We can settle with DIY tethers. You can TWIST it one way, then twist it the other. Having the biner allows you to quickly create a Prussik or personal anchor very quickly. Haven't climbed on it yet, just looking for some constructive critique.
Why do you need to create a prussic anyway? You're either on lead where you can't use it, on tr where you can say take, or tr soloing where you've got a device superior to a prussic already hooked up. Are you free soling next to fixed ropes? For the personal anchor, is it better than having a double sling or two with biners clipped to your harness?

That seriously is my constructive feedback. I think your system is overly complicated and doesn't really solve any problems.

I pointed out the dropped tool example to illustrate that tools falling might not be your biggest concern.
Kyle Tarry · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 162

What the heck is in the water lately that makes people think the existing solutions to problems aren't good enough?

Just get a stretchy spinner leash from BD, Grivel, CAMP, or whoever.

Problems with your setup:
-No pivot means tangled mess.
-Due to cord being static, you need to make it long enough to reach the furthest possible swing, so it's going to be long and droopy when your tools are at your chest/waist.
-There is no reason to attach it to your belay loop AND the climbing rope (let alone with a prusik). Why?

If you want to carry spare cord and biners, carry them on your harness. Are you going to disassemble and untie this contraption in the middle of a pitch when you need more anchors (and then potentially drop your tools)?

For folks who use tethers (I do, on longer/committing routes, don't bother ice cragging), the BD/Grivel/CAMP/Blue Ice is pretty standard, and I hear very few complaints.

As to the "BD crap leashes," they didn't tire me out too much on this winter ascent of I Rock, Mt. Hood. Didn't bother my climbing partner using a similar homemade pair either.

Illumination Rock Winter Ascent

Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158
Kyle Tarry wrote:What the heck is in the water lately that makes people think the existing solutions to problems aren't good enough? Just get a stretchy spinner leash from BD, Grivel, CAMP, or whoever. Problems with your setup: -No pivot means tangled mess. -Due to cord being static, you need to make it long enough to reach the furthest possible swing, so it's going to be long and droopy when your tools are at your chest/waist. -There is no reason to attach it to your belay loop AND the climbing rope (let alone with a prusik). Why? If you want to carry spare cord and biners, carry them on your harness. Are you going to disassemble and untie this contraption in the middle of a pitch when you need more anchors (and then potentially drop your tools)? For folks who use tethers (I do, on longer/committing routes, don't bother ice cragging), the BD/Grivel/CAMP/Blue Ice is pretty standard, and I hear very few complaints. As to the "BD crap leashes," they didn't tire me out too much on this winter ascent of I Rock, Mt. Hood. Didn't bother my climbing partner using a similar homemade pair either.
What the heck is in YOUR water? Other people coming up with anchor posts made your Wheaties taste bad today? Mine tasted great! Back to the subject at hand...

I don't want a stretchy spinner leash. It can only be used as a stretchy spinner leash. Look closely and re-read the thread. If I needed to anchor quickly, use a Prussik to ascend, etc, I simply I clip from the tool, then use as needed. If I desire on rap I can use the cord to make anchors etc.

My cordetether doesn't droop when climbing, and when the tool is clipped to the harness I can easily route the cord the same way in the same motion.

I am glad you love your store bought super spinny leashes that serve one purpose. I have some snake oil cure all you may be interested in.

Constructive critique, not trollbaggery! Thanks in advance!
Kyle Tarry · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 162

So, just to be clear, you want feedback on your system, but only if that feedback supports your solution and agrees with you? Consider that you haven't even climbed with your system yet, and people giving feedback might have climbed lots of pitches with different systems. Sorry we don't agree. Consider trying your setup on a few pitches before you dismiss my opinions.

I don't want a stretchy spinner leash. It can only be used as a stretchy spinner leash. Look closely and re-read the thread.

Yeah, I got it the first time. I only want to use my leash as, well, a leash. The reason I use a leash is because I don't want to drop my tools. If I use my leash for something else, it's no longer "leashing," and it's no longer doing its job.

I don't need a load rated softshell so that I can tie it into an anchor, that's not its job.

If I needed to anchor quickly

What's the scenario where this makes sense? Why wouldn't you get a cord/sling off your harness or shoulder? Why is unclipping and untying your tether faster or easier than pulling a neatly coiled cord off your harness?

Not to mention, you're on toprope or following. Why do you need to build an "anchor" in the middle of a pitch? It doesn't make any sense.

If you're building an anchor, you're pulling screws and biners off your harness. Why wouldn't you also pull a sling/cord off? Why would you use your tether?

use a Prussik to ascend, etc, I simply I clip from the tool, then use as needed.

When are you going to need a prusik to ascend? You clearly are not leading, so you're on toprope or following.

Think about it this way: in this context, ice climbing is not any different than rock climbing. When you climb rock, do you always tie a prusik to your rope and clip it into your harness "in case you need to ascend?" It's the same logic.

In the rare case where you need to ascend the rope, just tie a klemheist with one of your slings, or pull your prusik cord out of your rescue kit, or use a cord.

If I desire on rap I can use the cord to make anchors etc.

Why would you use your tether to make rap anchors (except in an emergency)? Cut up a piece of cord you have for that purpose, why would you want to cut up and remake your tether?

Allen Sanderson · · Oootah · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,135

Personally I am not seeing it. The cord is too fat and I hate biners rattling around on the end of my tools. Just get some 4 or 5mm accessory cord and tie some keeper cords. I did that for years. They will twist together and around your cord (spinners will do that as well). Simple and light weight but strong enough to hold body weight if needed. If you need to belay off your tool use the biners and the cord. More versatile. And in 35 years of sliding on the ice I have never used a prusik on the up. While rapping yes.

Dharma Bum · · Glen Haven, Co · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 585

You could always try this: m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd8bH...;feature=share

Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158
Kevin Zagorda wrote:You could always try this: m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd8bH...;feature=share
Geeznutz, I've been going about this all wrong! Thanks Kevie!
Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158

Freakin versatility!

http://youtu.be/L8oAQOvOEXY

will ar · · San Antonio, TX · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 250
Faulted Geologist wrote:I am glad you love your store bought super spinny leashes that serve one purpose.
I think sometimes people place more emphasis on this than needed. A specialized piece of gear often performs better at it's specified task than a multi use piece of gear (how often do you wear your approach shoes to rock climb in?). Regardless of how many functions a piece of gear has it can usually only perform one function at a time anyways.

I personally like my BD spinner leashes on longer routes. I've done a lot of climbing with them, without them, with homemade stretchy tethers (I have an industrial sewing machine and would recommend just buying BD's product off the shelf-it's probably more streamlined and cheaper when you factor in time), and cord tied to my tools. I've never experienced fatigue from a stretchy type leash/tether. Borrow some and try them out for yourself-based on your post you only tried to sew some. I think you'll be surprised by just how much your setup will droop and get caught on stuff whether it's icicles, stuff on your harness, or potentially even your crampon points on lower angle ground. Twisting and tangling will also be more than on a spinner leash since there isn't a spinning link incorporated into your design.

As for the other functions you listed: clipping into an anchor or using a prussik. I always seem to be able to find an extra draw/sling on my harness to clip into quickly if I need to. Based on my experience prussiks are most often used for rappel set ups or if a climber falls on an overhanging route and can't get back on. How often do you realistically find yourself hanging out in space after a fall on an ice climb? Pure ice climbs are rarely steep and often don't feature a single hard move that you can't pull after hanging on the rope and need to resort to prussiking past.
Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 585

I'll take a moment to applaud the DIY attitude--experimenting and learning from that process can be very helpful traits to possess.

That said, I think it'd be wise to consider the feedback you've already gotten. There's at least a few hundred pitches of ice experience in this thread (hell, Allen's probably got 10 times that on his own). Consider that people have been climbing vertical ice since the '70s, and many solutions to the dropping your tools problem have been explored (which at times included carrying a 3rd tool, and rarely still might).

Next, consider that ice climbing is a niche sport within a niche sport, lacking large profit margins. Consequently, anything that has made it to market as a manufactured good at this point is likely a pretty solid refinement on what proved to be the best system through years of trial and error; otherwise, you couldn't hope to sell enough units to make it profitable.

Consequently, any system you devise is likely not going be terribly innovative or the most effective. However, this should not stop you from trying, since this is the slow and painful process by which innovation occurs. However, purely from a numbers standpoint, it is unlikely that you will create a sustaining innovation, and even less likely you will create a disruptive one. Leashless climbing represents one such disruptive innovation, though, so who knows, you could come up with the next one.

Finally, my two cents:

The spinner is a nice feature as while it does not eliminate the possibility of twists, it certainly helps; this is crucial on challenging steep ice and mixed terrain where changing hands on the tool occurs more frequently.

An elastic tether is nice as it prevents droop. This is particularly pertinent on lower angle terrain/snow, which occurs more frequently in the alpine (the very terrain you'd probably want tethers).

Similarly, carabiners are nice, but they can unclip (particularly the little plastic ones BD uses; Grivel's mini-lockers are better I think). Clipping them to a cord loop alleviates this problem. This also allows the carabiners to be moved to the head of the tool for lower angle terrain (instead of tying the tethers directly to the spike/shaft).

Finally, I already use a minimal and versatile kit. If I am using my prussik for any kind of upward progress, rest assured I'm in a situation where I'm probably still trying to move quickly and will therefore be free climbing as much as possible. If I wanted tethers for free climbing before, I'll want them in that situation, too.

In other words, the tether serves the incredibly important purpose of keeping both of your tools with you, which could otherwise prove fatal, or at least very costly in terms of retreat. I don't want it to serve any other job, nor am I willing to sacrifice that job to another task.

A similar situation may prove illustrative. Consider the case of using some 6mm cord as your chalk bag belt instead of whatever little belt clip thing or piece of string it comes with. This creates added versatility as you rarely truly need chalk to not die. Removing your tethers to use as a prussik implies that there is some situation that would arise that is somehow more dire than dropping your tools; you might consider this for beefing up rappel anchors, but otherwise this line of reasoning isn't internally consistent if considering upward progress.

Finally, the rope is below, not above when leading, which is why manufactured tether systems afix to the harness. Most of my ice/mixed/alpine climbing occurs on lead or solo, which makes this system of little utility to me personally.

I'm just not sold, but good on ya for experimenting with your own systems.

Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158

Will AR, Derek DeBruin, thank you for the kind and concise responses. That was exactly what I was looking for. I will try them out on some single top rope before committing to a big route. With all the talk about fast, light and multifunctional, I thought I had an innovative design. The only way we know is trying something new.

Mountain Shart (highaltitudeflatulence) & Kyle Terry: try reading your response, then read the previous two above this one. Kindness goes a long way. If we stick with what we were sold, we would still have ice axes instead of tools, witch burnings for women who do not submit to male religious organizations, combined sewer and storm water pipes, steel carabiners, canvas and wax clothing, horse drawn buggies, I could go on for days. I applaud the efforts of others who try new anchor setups, not just accepting a fig-8 on a bight. Maybe what they come up with will not work or improve anything, but at least they tried and submitted their idea for consideration. As a scientist, I seek to disprove; I just didn't feel like your answers addressed much, and your tone sucks.

Adventures,
Clint

Kyle Tarry · · Portland, OR · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 162

(Post deleted).

I don't think my post was very "unkind." You response to it wasn't so nice either. Next time I won't offer advice.

Consider trying your proposed setup in the real world, whether it works or not will become quickly apparent.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

So I hurt your feelings?

I didn't know it was my job to care for your ego. Read what I wrote. If you're too frail to learn from it, well Mr. Kansas, that's on you.

Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158
Kyle Tarry wrote:(Post deleted). I don't think my post was very "unkind." You response to it wasn't so nice either. Next time I won't offer advice. Consider trying your proposed setup in the real world, whether it works or not will become quickly apparent.
Fight fire with fire.

Innovation happens after many failures, and doesn't happen without trying. Advice in the way you offer adds little. Buh-bye!
Clint White aka Faulted Geologist · · Lawrence, KS · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 158
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:So I hurt your feelings? I didn't know it was my job to care for your ego. Read what I wrote. If you're too frail to learn from it, well Mr. Kansas, that's on you.
I read what you wrote and appreciated the meat n taters. For some reason there is a lot of anger in these forums. The Internet is so filled with wasted keystrokes. Imagine all the bits and bytes of wasted server space eating up the energy we mine, pushing us towards cold, dark entropy.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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