Clipping stoppers wtih quick draws


Original Post
BJ Null · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 305

I have seen several mentions of clipping nuts/ stoppers with a quick draw rather than an alpine draw.

I have always thought an alpine draw would be better because of rope wiggle/ etc. pulling out the piece.

Can anyone explain why it would be better to clip nuts with sport styled quick draw?

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 225

Better is subjective. It's generally more likely a stopper will pull when clipped with a shorter sling. Sometimes you get that perfect placement though and a quickdraw is fine. Personally I tend to sling most stuff long for rope drag unless it's pretty hard climbing. To each their own i suppose.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

1. quicker
2. you will fall less far
3. the pieces will be in the right order (if you had a cam below a stopper and put the stopper on a long sling, the stopper would effective be below the cam)
4. stops pieces "interfering" with each other - i.e. the carabiners of a nest of runners getting inside each other and each others' slings. This might have messy results with things clipping into each other or pulling each other out.
5. when using double ropes, long draws are less often needed.
6. when you want to work a route, you can shout take and not end up 60cm lower than you want
7. when you want to cheat there is more to grab
8. quicker for the second to clean

just make sure a shorter sling will not make the stopper more likely to be pulled out.

20 kN · · Hawaii · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,352

You can clip them with any type of sling or draw you want. I am not aware of any distinct, explicate and universal safety advantages to one option over the other. The only universal truth I know is that some wiregate carabiners have a higher chance of coming uncliped from a nut than solidgates. This is because the skinny steel cable can easily wrap around the side of the gate and open it. None the less, I use wiregates on all my draws and slings so that tell you how much I am concerned about it.

BrianWS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 790

I think the issue of concern is the stiffness of many popular draws (Spirits etc) that can lead to problems with nut placements. Stiffer draws are more likely to cause the stopper/bolt side carabiner to lift and torque, which can potentially move the nut out of place. Draws made with more flexible/floppy fabric are less likely to move in a manner that can mess with placements.

Still in the end, whether you use a long sling or a short draw is purely contextual - like any other "rules" regarding safe nut placements. How deeply set is the nut, how much does the route wander, how far off the deck are you, etc.

For example:
if I have a somewhat shallow or loosely set placement, I'll be more likely to use a doubled up or fully extended alpine draw.

If the route wanders or the next pro is a good distance to the right or left of my last piece (traverses, etc).

If I have a bomber placement and the route continues in a more or less direct line above, length and flexibility of the draw are not going to matter as much.

If the route has difficulty closer to the ground or a ledge, a short draw will reduce chances of decking

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 190
David Coley wrote: 3. the pieces will be in the right order (if you had a cam below a stopper and put the stopper on a long sling, the stopper would effective be below the cam)
This is actually a really good point and something that is often overlooked when placing pro. You can pretty easily become z-clipped doing that.
Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90
20 kN wrote:...I am condensed about it.
20kn,

Noooo! Stop condensing!
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 275
Russ Keane · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 140

David Coley,

Great summary. Those bomber nuts placed at your head level, on a crux, with a short little draw.... mmmm yummy... it's like toproping!

ViperScale · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 230

The type of sling doesn't matter they all work the same. The length of the sling only matters to try to keep the rope straight so you don't create rope drag which can lead to gear being pulled out / a nightmare when you get towards the end of a pitch.

Hugo Watt · · Southern California · Joined May 2012 · Points: 5

There is always the option to place the nut, untie your rope from your harness, thread the rope through the piece, then retie before continuing.
That way you don't even need to carry either type of draw.

ViperScale · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2013 · Points: 230
Hugo Watt wrote:There is always the option to place the nut, untie your rope from your harness, thread the rope through the piece, then retie before continuing. That way you don't even need to carry either type of draw.
Much safer to run the rope through the gear than tie it into your harness than untie and feed it through and retie the figure 8... that way you are always still tied in and safe.
David Gibbs · · Ottawa, ON · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 6
ViperScale wrote: Much safer to run the rope through the gear than tie it into your harness than untie and feed it through and retie the figure 8... that way you are always still tied in and safe.
Actually, why not just pre-thread all the nuts onto your rope in the order you're going to use them before you tie-in? Seems a lot quicker and easier that way -- no need for all that faffing around at each placement.
Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,430
BrianWS wrote:I think the issue of concern is the stiffness of many popular draws (Spirits etc) that can lead to problems with nut placements. Stiffer draws are more likely to cause the stopper/bolt side carabiner to lift and torque, which can potentially move the nut out of place. Draws made with more flexible/floppy fabric are less likely to move in a manner that can mess with placements. Still in the end, whether you use a long sling or a short draw is purely contextual - like any other "rules" regarding safe nut placements. How deeply set is the nut, how much does the route wander, how far off the deck are you, etc. For example: if I have a somewhat shallow or loosely set placement, I'll be more likely to use a doubled up or fully extended alpine draw. If the route wanders or the next pro is a good distance to the right or left of my last piece (traverses, etc). If I have a bomber placement and the route continues in a more or less direct line above, length and flexibility of the draw are not going to matter as much. If the route has difficulty closer to the ground or a ledge, a short draw will reduce chances of decking
This. 100%. I always carry a few floppy draws with the thinner dogbones (older BD positron draws, or newer hoodwire draws) in addition to extendable draws for this very reason.
Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90
Jake Jones wrote: This. 100%. I always carry a few floppy draws with the thinner dogbones (older BD positron draws, or newer hoodwire draws) in addition to extendable draws for this very reason.
I picked up a couple of the long version of these dogbones for this purpose and quite like them. Bigger "loose end" than say, a hotwire all nylon 18" draw.
http://www.gearexpress.com/metolius-toe-monster-dogbones.html
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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