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Claiming blank rock

Original Post
Evan Wisheropp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 10,161

Hello fellow bolters,

We all know once a route is bolted, it is in the hands of the one who bolted it or climbed it first, but I am wondering what is required to call "dibs" and claim bolting rights when a potential new line is spotted? Is the route open until someone begins bolting, cleaning, or climbing the route? What happens when several people have expressed some level of interest in bolting the route, and it is unclear whether the route should go to whoever saw it first, or whoever took initiative first (touching the rock, climbing it, cleaning, etc...)?

The reason for these silly questions is that after bolting around 25 routes locally, someone has threatened to chop my newest route. One year ago someone pointed at the route right above the lunch rock and expressed what seemed like a very mild interest in bolting it, four or five others expressed the same interest around the same time. Most people doubted the climb would actually go, and none of them have spoken of the route since. There has never been any activity on the route from anyone so I went up there two weeks ago and installed TR bolts so I could actually scout the route. Excited that the route goes at a very technical 5.13b, I mentioned to the first individual how I was hoping to get the route bolted finally. After lots of passive aggressive talk, he said, "go for it, it's your route" so I told him I was buying the bolts and ordered $200 of titanium glue-ins. After the bolts arrived he demanded to be involved in the bolting process, and I agreed to it. When he once forgot our plans, and then again failed to show up on bolting day, I told him I would carry on with my day's plans, and received another passive aggressive, "go for it, it's your route." After the glue dried he threatened to chop the route.

Perhaps I overstepped or perhaps he snoozed too long. What does it take for you to claim ownership of a blank chunk of rock? How would you resolve this dispute diplomatically?

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

Send the route.

It's way too much work to chop glue ins. I bet he's blowing hot air.

John Byrnes · · Fort Collins, CO · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 392
Evan Wisheropp wrote: Perhaps I overstepped or perhaps he snoozed too long. What does it take for you to claim ownership of a blank chunk of rock? How would you resolve this dispute diplomatically?
I don't think you overstepped anything. This guy sounds like a jerk; only jerks threaten to chop, or chop, a route because they didn't get off their ass and do it first, or even show-up to help.

Don't argue with him, show him this thread and let him argue with us.

P.S. Kudos for using Ti.
NateC · · Utah · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 0

He didn't have the motivation to go up there and clean and inspect the route.

He didn't have the motivation to work the route to see if it goes.

He didn't have the motivation to go there WITH you and bolt it after the bolts were already purchased.

You're really worried that he'll suddenly find the motivation to go up there and chop glue-ins?

He's just going to talk shit about you around town to anyone who will listen. He already is, most likely. You may as well go and finish the route.

Nathan Self · · Louisiana · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 90

If somebody else chops those bolts first---!---He's gonna be really pissed!

Peter Beal · · Boulder Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,825

At this point FAs don't matter anymore, especially for 1 pitch sport routes. Nobody has ownership of the rock. Good effort contributing to the community through a new route. That's the important part. Chopping bolts is so 1988.

Donovan Allen · · Soft Lake City · Joined May 2012 · Points: 356

Are these bolts on outside corner? Better put a plaque up and chop it too.

Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,203

People seem to have different views when it comes to route projects. A few years back at a more recently developed area we saw a potential line then noticed some anchors to the side. We climbed what we thought was the line for the anchors on gear. Not the greatest line and it seemed out of style as the FA party was mostly known for well bolted routes but whatever. The anchors bolts had been up for four years at that point.

We went to work cleaning the line we spied by removing a bunch of lose rock. it cleaned up nicely and we tossed in three bolts to supplement the gear. it was a nice little climb. However, the person who originally put the anchors bolts in four year before was offended claiming they had cleaned the route. They subsequently removed their anchors. We put is some other anchors to share with another route we did. Here is the route in question:

mountainproject.com/v/momen…

My only other experience was when myself and other party independently started developing routes at a new area at the same time. They tried to claim a route just by putting in one bolt at the bottom with a the red string on it. That did not fly. We chatted about the development and came to some agreements as there were a few other issues.

So for the OP if the route was blank, woulda, shoulda, coulda, means they were too late.

mcarizona · · Flag · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 180
Nathan Self wrote:If somebody else chops those bolts first---!---He's gonna be really pissed!
HA! : )
splitclimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 18

Hope this all works out Evan. Humboldt has too small of a climbing community for this stuff.

Thanks for all the work you've done at High Bluffs and other places. I still need to get out there.

The way you have described the events, I'd say you were in the right and even went out of your way to include the other climber.

Chopping glue-ins? Probably never a good outcome there.

Not to sling any shit - but can the other climber climb that grade. ;)

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
John Wilder wrote:Whoever gets there first, wins. It is what it is- if you want it that bad, get your ass out of bed earlier and go bolt the line.
Not entirely. There are open lines of communication.

People talk and they mention routes they'd like to do. I did eyeball a route a friend had been talking about for a while. That was enough to motivate him to get it done.

I've also abandoned a route I put anchors on top of and was planning to do. When someone else did it, I was psyched.

So no, not just first come first serve, more of a community collaboration.

The only reason I can see to get all huffy was if he'd been working it as a trad climb and you went and threw bolts into it. That doesn't sound like the case here, it sounds like he's an insecure weenie.
Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247
Pinklebear wrote:You got there first and put in the work, it's your route. I applaud your spirit in trying to include this other guy in the FA, but if he's going to be jerk about it I think you've done your best: you can now redpoint with a clear conscience. The whole "I looked at that" attitude barely even flew in the 1990s, much less so now. I remember when people used to just drill the first three bolts on a prospective line at Rifle then red-tag just that. Glad those days are long behind us!
I just can say it better.
Citsalp · · . . . CO · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 371

It's whomever first verbalizes intention. This ethic and respect goes back to Kor and Carter. It's a foundational FA assertion that has actually held in the upper courts.
That said, at least 2 others have to hear the call. Sounds like that's the case here. Te keep from an all-out bolt war, you should back away, admit your naivety and try to move on with your FA'ing life.

BTW, chopping is OK too. . . and interestingly, you don't have to call it to chop it. This is a foundational action that would hold up in court - unless the chopping was done in a way to cause someone harm (chopping a bolt at the end of a pumpy RO, where a long fall is most likely).

Evan Wisheropp · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 10,161
the Descender wrote:It's whomever first verbalizes intention.


So then how long can they sit on the route or forget about it before they miss out? Can they hog it forever while they move on to other things? I'll go and claim all my potential routes around here then (not really).
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
the Descender wrote:It's whomever first verbalizes intention. This ethic and respect goes back to Kor and Carter. It's a foundational FA assertion that has actually held in the upper courts.
Nonsense.
Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

What a dick!

Humbly, I would deliver a reply to this cat's bolt chopping... and that reply would incur a cost that would equal my time and expense lost working on my route.

Citsalp · · . . . CO · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 371
Evan Wisheropp wrote: So then how long can they sit on the route or forget about it before they miss out? Can they hog it forever while they move on to other things? I'll go and claim all my potential routes around here then (not really).
It's not until the claimant dies - but before you start cleaning and bolting "their line", you have to have a copy of their death certificate.
There is one caveat: No Greenies are ever allowed to bolt in WYO. Period.
I think I'm Grandfathered in, but for the rest of you it's a big no-no!

On that, I claim the north side of Big Rock in the SPlatte. Also, all open crack lines on Reese Mtn in the Laramie Range.

If anyone has some extra bolts and hangers I could borrow, that'd be awesome!
Aleks Zebastian · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 175

climbing friend,

all your FA are belong to me.

do you even flash?

M Mobley · · Bar Harbor, ME · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 911
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:Send the route. It's way too much work to chop glue ins. I bet he's blowing hot air.
Yeah uhhh, so hard to chop a piece of metal. Uh huh.
Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247

There he comes again, he's he ok?..........

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

If the rock is blank why would anyone want to claim it?

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Sport Climbing
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