outside corner pitch 3 belay bolts and memorial plaque.

If my temper and ego weren't in check I'd have done it the day I first saw them. Didn't mean to come off snarky, I'm just concerned this kind of thing will keep happening. There are two crags within walking distance of this route that have retrobolted. One route in particular was put up by Conrad Anker on gear and is now grid bolted.

So you're a "local" Wasatch climber and you just recently climbed this route for the first time and now you are the Gatekeeper?

I'm not a local, I'm a long ways away, but if I were a local I'd tell you to piss off.

Again I highlight the 1st guideline and no I've climbed it 20 times or more and I am a "local" climber as I've lived here 35 years. I'm not the gatekeeper, again if I was I wouldn't be asking questions would I? Attempts to turn this into an argument aren't going to work, this is in my eyes a serious matter that deserves real responses not hostility.

There have been a few posts about this in the past few months in a few different places on here. It seams like they went up around March or April of this spring. I have talked to a bunch of fellow climbers in the wasatch lately about them and it seams like there is not a ton of concern over them. I am fairly indifferent about them. Yes I clipped them the last time I was on it since its the fastest way to make a anchor up there and its right above the top out so the rope is pulling straight. I will say that when I first pulled over the top I was a little disappointed that there were there. My one real concern is that people might start doing some top down shannagins from those bolts for some reason. It seams like if they were going to get taken down that it would have been done by now. Just my 2 cents I can go either way on them.

I can't for the life of me understand the "dumbing down the route" argument in this particular context. By that logic you should also cut down and remove all of the webbing around boulders on the first two belays. But that doesn't seem to be an issue to the folks saying "chop them!" Its not like the whole route was retro bolted, the climbing experience is the same. Two bolts certainly has less environmental impact then slinging (and potentially killing) trees at the top.

50 or 60 years ago there were no SLCDs, do you climb with them? Then you are dumbing down the route. I feel like this has come up because somebody is looking for an argument (and it sure worked on me).

The only other thing I have to say is; when you chop bolts, you are imposing your will on the climb just as much as the person who added them in the first place. You better be damn sure that its what the community wants. That goes way beyond this little internet thread.

We seem to be beating a dead horse here. The reason I didn't chop them back in February when I climbed it was so that I can figure out what's going on, while I admit I'm not moving at record pace I'm a pretty busy person and it resurfaced a week or so ago after soloing the route. I'm making attempts to contact his friends and family to see if we can come to an understanding. As for the SLCD dumbing down the route, they were made so we don't have to use bolts, it's called clean climbing. So your analogy is invalid. As for the slings on the first and second belay I can remove them as well if you like. But you should be backing them up with one of your own. See again they are removable, clean climbing. You can literally belay from slung boulders at each station. To address the portion of your comment regarding slings on a tree potentially killing the tree, I fail to see how, you're supposed to tie them with a big loop on the trunk so you won't kill the tree, again clean climbing.

John Wilder wrote:You're actually getting some really well thought out opinions on this from fellow locals, just not necessarily ones you agree with. I found the guys obituary online. Sounded like a pretty legit climber who had really made a mark on the climbing world and the local community.

I read the same page you did, based on this next quote that came from Billy Rothstien do you think he'd like them?

His tutelage that he leaves with us is; "Look up, keep climbing, stay true to traditions, and remember the greatest happinesses are not gained by easy things. Climb the mountains."

Stay true to traditions, it is not traditional to retrobolt a classic, even if it's just an anchor.

I offer this sidebar question that is very relevant here; what do we know about ethics? What are the standards passed to us from those who came before us?

Billy once helped himself to my buddies lunch at the base of the corner. It's not usual to leave packs there, it happened we were coming back to do another route near the start. He said to me as he crammed himself into the last belay that he would buy my friend a beer some day. Nice I thought, my buddy is missing his lunch but will get a beer from some guy in a city of a million...

Billy or his follower buried a .75 on the second pitch, couldn't get it so it was left behind, he said he would get it the next day. Too fucking late Billy. RIP.

When I topped out on this climb the other day it shocked me to see this plaque and bolts right there. I think that it does detract from the climb to have the bolts on the top. Sure they are convenient, but there are a lot of options for gear anchors up there. I would hope that both the plaque and anchors get removed. The plaque could have been placed in a lot of other places up there and not be so intrusive. The bolts are not needed.

T Roper wrote:Billy once helped himself to my buddies lunch at the base of the corner. It's not usual to leave packs there, it happened we were coming back to do another route near the start. He said to me as he crammed himself into the last belay that he would buy my friend a beer some day. Nice I thought, my buddy is missing his lunch but will get a beer from some guy in a city of a million... Billy or his follower buried a .75 on the second pitch, couldn't get it so it was left behind, he said he would get it the next day. Too fucking late Billy. RIP.

Refreshing, not too often do the dead get called out for being douchebags.

T Roper wrote:Billy once helped himself to my buddies lunch at the base of the corner. It's not usual to leave packs there, it happened we were coming back to do another route near the start. He said to me as he crammed himself into the last belay that he would buy my friend a beer some day. Nice I thought, my buddy is missing his lunch but will get a beer from some guy in a city of a million... Billy or his follower buried a .75 on the second pitch, couldn't get it so it was left behind, he said he would get it the next day. Too fucking late Billy. RIP.

How well did you know him? I'm trying to go about this as sensitively as I can, any help would be very much appreciated.

It sounds like there is plenty of gear options for an anchor but I would like to add that yes slinging trees does slowly kill them. I have witnessed the slow death of trees because of this, as well as conscientious climbers adding bolted anchors to prevent this and the significant erosion from countless climbers topping out. One of these situations resulted in a chop / rebolt war. Guess who lost? The tree (now very dead) and the now horribly eroded cliff top.

Why are the bolts linked to the plaque in this discussion? It seems like these are two separate discussions.

justa beater wrote:Again I highlight the 1st guideline and no I've climbed it 20 times or more and I am a "local" climber as I've lived here 35 years. I'm not the gatekeeper, again if I was I wouldn't be asking questions would I? Attempts to turn this into an argument aren't going to work, this is in my eyes a serious matter that deserves real responses not hostility.

I'm not trying to start an argument, you asked for opinions and I gave you one. Maybe give us a little more background, like, "I climbed this route 19 times, and on the 20th..."
I agree with you on the plaque, I don't like them. Bolts I could really care less. I know that I am sufficient at building anchors, and if there are bolts that just means I save a little time.

As for the bolts: I could careless. I don't need them but if they are well placed to kick less choss off the top of the formation maybe they are reasonable.

Plaque: OP this is an easy question and I don't believe is one for the climbing community to make the call on. Please I could VERY EASILY BE WRONG but last I knew of the law this is NFS Land and the NFS requires permits for installing anything like a plaque on the land they administer. As reference: The flag pole on Olympus and the plaque on King's Peak; both removed by those who installed.

archive.sltrib.com/story.ph…

So if you want an answer call the Salt Lake Ranger District. If it is permitted then it stays. If not I don't know what they will tell you.

tim wrote: Refreshing, not too often do the dead get called out for being douchebags.

Some might say inconsiderate douche, he probably thought he was the owner of this 3 pitch 5.7 since it was his specialty apparently. Dirtbag thief most might think.

If anyone needs to sling a tree(bush) at the top of this climb they should stay at the beginner crag.

NFS Salt Lake City district .
District supervisor
(801) 999-2103

I climb in the wasatch and I think the bolts and plaque should be removed.