La Sportiva Pythons equivalent??


Original Post
Andy McClellan · · Cincinnati, OH · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 0

Finally heard the word around town that La Sportiva has discontinued the Pythons, which are my go-to shoe for training, bouldering, and sport climbing. I like that they are sensitive, comfortable for a down-turned last, and don't blow out super quick.

Does anyone have a recommendation as to which shoes are comparable? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks,
Andy

P.S. Also, if you happen to have a pair of newish size 41 Pythons for sale, I'd be interested.

that guy named seb · · Britland · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0

They are replacing them with the skwarma, it's an upgrade for the same money. The P3 system will make them allot nicer for allot longer.

JCM · · Seattle, WA · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 5
that guy named seb wrote:They are replacing them with the skwarma, it's an upgrade for the same money. The P3 system will make them allot nicer for allot longer.
Not necessarily. Part (most) of the appeal of the Python is how soft and sensitive they are. This is nice on plastic, and for steep "grabbing" on featured rock. The P3 shoes are generally a fair bit stiffer, and as such would not be a good replacement. P3 is nice for a shoe that you want to maintain stiffness for edging, but not in a shoe that you want to be crazy soft.

Maybe the Futura as a replacement?
that guy named seb · · Britland · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0
JCM wrote: Not necessarily. Part (most) of the appeal of the Python is how soft and sensitive they are. This is nice on plastic, and for steep "grabbing" on featured rock. The P3 shoes are generally a fair bit stiffer, and as such would not be a good replacement. P3 is nice for a shoe that you want to maintain stiffness for edging, but not in a shoe that you want to be crazy soft. Maybe the Futura as a replacement?
P3 has no eeffect on how soft the shoes are just how they maintain their shape, trust me i have the speedsters probably one of the softest shoes ever made.
JCM · · Seattle, WA · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 5
that guy named seb wrote: P3 has no eeffect on how soft the shoes are just how they maintain their shape, trust me i have the speedsters probably one of the softest shoes ever made.
Interesting. Do you know if the replacement shoe (Skwama) is of similar shape, fit, and softness to the Python?

Speedsters are also a possible super-soft alternative, although I do like the single strap closure of the Python.
that guy named seb · · Britland · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0
JCM wrote: Interesting. Do you know if the replacement shoe (Skwama) is of similar shape, fit, and softness to the Python? Speedsters are also a possible super-soft alternative, although I do like the single strap closure of the Python.
Speedsters are amazing shoes i love the no edge and the lack of a true closure doesn't effect it at all, that being said, it only has a okay heel so works well with a pair of miura vs. That being said it's not sold in the US would have to order it in from europe.
The stiffness and sensitivity of the shoes will be very very similiar to one another the only difference worth noting is that the skwarma has 4mm rather than 3.5mm of xsgrip but if you intend to use as a training and gym shoe i would welcome this slight increase in durability both from the rubber and the P3 system allowing the shoe to maintain its shape for longer.
Edit: and yes they are both built on the same last the PD75, the fit has probably changed a bit and probably now has a "love bump" but from what i have heard from everyone who has ever used the love bump be it on evolv, la sportiva or scarpa, it's all ways been a increase of comfort. It also has a new heel which looks pretty cool. TBH I cant really see any downsides to this new design looks like a perfect gym shoe.
Noah Yetter · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 10

If you don't want to wait for the Skwama, try the women's Miura VS, they are nearly as soft as the Python

JCM · · Seattle, WA · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 5
Noah Yetter wrote:If you don't want to wait for the Skwama, try the women's Miura VS, they are nearly as soft as the Python
That is entirely false. They aren't even in the same universe.
Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 45

Seb the only issue I have with the "love bump" is that it adds a lot of extra volume for toe-hooks. I've already got big feet (13 US), so there are some moves I can't do in my Shamans because the shoe is too fucking big, lol. That being said, for everything else, the bump is great.

Andy, have you tried 5.10 Moccasyms? Might seem like an obvious choice, but if you size them aggressively, they'll fair pretty well for the applications you're looking for.

Nick Drake · · Newcastle, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 433

Pythons are my go to gym/training/steep slick sport shoe of choice also. I picked up two pairs when it looked like they were going out. I'm actually really going to miss the higher volume forefoot w/o the "love bump" deal. The flat sole really makes the python easy to smear for a down turned shoe.

that guy named seb wrote: P3 has no eeffect on how soft the shoes are just how they maintain their shape, trust me i have the speedsters probably one of the softest shoes ever made.
Have you owned a pair of pythons Seb?

Speedster: NO forefoot insert, has P3, 3mm xs Grip rubber

Python: .8mm laspoflex insert in the forefoot, no P3, only slingshot rand under arch and has 3.5mm xs Grip rubber.

Skwama: .8mm laspoflex insert in forefoot, HAS P3, and comes with 4mm xs grip

Saying that "p3 doesn't make it stiffer" when your experience is in a shoe with NO midsole insert isn't valuable unless you have a point of comparison between two models that both have the same midsole.

Take the katana lace vs. velcro. Both have 4mm xs edge. Both have full length 1.1 laspoflex the full length of the sole. The lace is significantly stiffer than the velcro and has a reputation for better edging.
Noah Yetter · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 10
JCM wrote: That is entirely false. They aren't even in the same universe.
I guess it's subjective? They feel almost identical to me. But I'm 200lbs and a size 43, perhaps they're stiffer in smaller sizes or under less weight.
that guy named seb · · Britland · Joined Oct 2015 · Points: 0
Nick Drake wrote:Pythons are my go to gym/training/steep slick sport shoe of choice also. I picked up two pairs when it looked like they were going out. I'm actually really going to miss the higher volume forefoot w/o the "love bump" deal. The flat sole really makes the python easy to smear for a down turned shoe. Have you owned a pair of pythons Seb? Speedster: NO forefoot insert, has P3, 3mm xs Grip rubber Python: .8mm laspoflex insert in the forefoot, no P3, only slingshot rand under arch and has 3.5mm xs Grip rubber. Skwama: .8mm laspoflex insert in forefoot, HAS P3, and comes with 4mm xs grip Saying that "p3 doesn't make it stiffer" when your experience is in a shoe with NO midsole insert isn't valuable unless you have a point of comparison between two models that both have the same midsole. Take the katana lace vs. velcro. Both have 4mm xs edge. Both have full length 1.1 laspoflex the full length of the sole. The lace is significantly stiffer than the velcro and has a reputation for better edging.
So how does a P3 insole make the shoe stiffer? Also your comment on the katana velcros edging ability compared to the lace is entirely subjective.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1569
Even if the P3 system did make the shoe stiffer it's certainly not enough to prevent me from rolling my speedsters into a tiny little ball.
As far as me lacking experience with shoes models that are with and with out P3 you are indeed correct, the closest i could say is the miura and the miura vs though i must say, the forefoot feels the same in the hand both extremely stiff, I can say with out a doubt that the miura is only good for about 3 months after which it turns flat while the miura vs maintains it's downturn.
And no, i haven't climbed with the pythons before, the speedsters are my go to shoe.
JCM · · Seattle, WA · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 5
that guy named seb wrote: I can say with out a doubt that the miura is only good for about 3 months after which it turns flat while the miura vs maintains it's downturn.
This is true.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 25

generally P3 shoes keep their stiffness and shape pretty well, compared to the "same" model without P3 ... even after resoles providing they were done well and with XS edge (katana lace and miura VS)

the miuras and katanas on the other hand tend to soften up decently, especially if you use em for smeary trad (squamish) ... especially after resoles

i own around 10 pairs of the katanas, miuras, vipers (remember those?), etc ...

;)

Curt Shannon · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 0
bearbreeder wrote:generally P3 shoes keep their stiffness and shape pretty well, compared to the "same" model without P3...
Well, the TC Pro certainly doesn't keep it's stiffness very long, although I admit I have no idea what it would be like without P3.

Curt
rocknice2 · · Montreal, Quebec · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 2,958
What is P3?

P3 is a technical randing system developed to deliver power to the sole and maintain the down-turned shape of the shoe.


http://www.sportiva.com/about/aboutus/about-us/faqs
Nick Drake · · Newcastle, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 433
that guy named seb wrote: So how does a P3 insole make the shoe stiffer? Also your comment on the katana velcros edging ability compared to the lace is entirely subjective. ukclimbing.com/gear/review.... Even if the P3 system did make the shoe stiffer it's certainly not enough to prevent me from rolling my speedsters into a tiny little ball. As far as me lacking experience with shoes models that are with and with out P3 you are indeed correct, the closest i could say is the miura and the miura vs though i must say, the forefoot feels the same in the hand both extremely stiff, I can say with out a doubt that the miura is only good for about 3 months after which it turns flat while the miura vs maintains it's downturn. And no, i haven't climbed with the pythons before, the speedsters are my go to shoe.
That's a pretty old review on the katana velcro, when they were using XS grip, and not comparing them the lace. Edging is in the eye of the beholder though, some people think mocs are great.

P3 won't make it stiffer in the forefoot (lateral stiffness in forefoot/edging), but it is adding material through the arch. The very soft arch on the python does make it easier to smear IMO because you can pull your toes up easily.

I just didn't think that using your speedster to state P3 doesn't add any stiffness to a shoe isn't a solid example. You have no shoe to make an accurate comparison against. To the best of my knowledge sportiva hasn't made a shoe that with no midsole insert at all and just a standard slingshot rand.

The muira isn't a direct comparison either, the lace only has the laspoflex insert up in the forefoot. The velcro has is full length.
Both the katana lace and velcro have full length inserts, that's the only sportiva I can think of where you could make a direct comparison between P3 and none.

Bearbreader have you used both the katana lace and velcro or just the lace?
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 25
Nick Drake wrote: Bearbreader have you used both the katana lace and velcro or just the lace?
i have both and used both the last few dayz depending on da climb .... and both the miura and miura VS

i have ~30 pairs of climbing shoes that can do one or two runs up the chief still ...

and around 1/3 of them are sportivas

;)
Nick Drake · · Newcastle, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 433
bearbreeder wrote: i have both and used both the last few dayz depending on da climb .... and both the miura and miura VS i have ~30 pairs of climbing shoes that can do one or two runs up the chief still ... and around 1/3 of them are sportivas ;)
How would you say the lace katanas are over time vs. the velcro?

I have tc pros, pythons, and just picked up katana laces so I can't make any direct comparison.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 25
Nick Drake wrote: How would you say the lace katanas are over time vs. the velcro? I have tc pros, pythons, and just picked up katana laces so I can't make any direct comparison.
they keep their stiffness pretty well even after a resole or two, providing you keep using XS edge and have a good resoler

eventually by the 3rd resole itll probably soften up a bit

the velcro i find gets softer the less rubber there is on the ball of the foot (the normal wear when smearing, not just the toe)

the lace less so ... it keeps good stiffness even when the rubber gets a bit worn

part of that is due to the greater downturn over the velcro ... and part to the P3 IMO

as a reference the miura lace gets softer and loses its downturn fairly fast with alot of smeary trad use

;)
reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 50

I don't understand people who say their shoes don't lose stiffness until a resole or 2; I've yet to have a pair of (relatively stiff-soled) shoes that don't lose a great deal of stiffness by the end of the original sole. All of my edging shoes (Scarpa Boostic, Instinct VS, Vapor Lace, Sportiva Katana lace/TC Pro) are pretty useless for edging after 1 resole (sometimes before the original sole is done for, like the TC Pro). 2nd resole? Forget it, I've regretted that decision every single time.

Ironically, it's the softer aggressively downturned ones that can sometimes still edge after more than 1 resole, but those don't derive their edging power from stiff sole.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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