Universal Belay Standard

powhound84 wrote: He uses a hip belay, of course :)

A hip belay actually conforms to the principles of the AAC "Gold Standard"--which apparently (and annoyingly) they're now calling "Universal Belay Standard"--since 1) you never have to remove your hand from the brake strand, 2) perform hand transitions in the location of maximum braking, and 3) hold the brake with your hand in a strong ergonomic position.

Tim Lutz wrote:Thanks for noticing...

You're welcome. Every now and then I like to call out someone special.

powhound84 wrote: I don't disagree. I was just kidding around because we all know Healy loves a good ol' hip belay.

rgold wrote:...if the belayer is wearing gloves, as anyone climbing multipitch outdoors really should.

rgold and I agree on most things, this isn't one of them. My interpretation is that he adopts this view principally due to his experiencing rope sliding / slipping through his hands during falls at some point whereas I have never experienced any sliding / slipping of the rope regardless of fall length or fall factor both hip and device belaying. Different experiences lead to different opinions.

powhound84 wrote: I don't disagree. I was just kidding around because we all know Healy loves a good ol' hip belay.

I just think it's something that a bunch of people wouldn't even realize until it's pointed out to them.

But since I'm a lowly factory worker, and nice clothing is expensive, I'll let my belay device and carabiners take the wear. =)

powhound84 wrote:Hip belay is awesome for some applications. For diggin snowpits, easy alpine and 4th or easy 5th class climbing, it beats messing with harnesses and hardware.

I'm belaying my partner on an overhanging 5.11 in that photo. The routes on that face are 5.9-5.13 and most all are overhanging for the first half. That was the standard TR belay for all of us.

Add a non-locking biner to the front of a harness for the leader's side of the rope and it was our standard multipitch lead belay for all our climbing for more than a decade on hard routes from the Gunks to Eldo with tons of hard and long falls.

In the hands of a competent belayer both are every bit as safe and effect as belaying with a device of any kind - safer in many ways because neither breeds inattention and distraction.

powhound84 wrote:I'm certainly not arguing that a hip belay is unsafe if done right but I definitely prefer an ATC style device for most scenarios.

It took years for us to learn to trust belay devices and I prefer atc's now as well. But one day I forgot my harness and belay device out at Beacon and still led Blownout tying into the end of the rope and rapping with a couple of borrowed biners (while still tied in to the end of the rope). Point being that years of progressively-assisted device use have lulled people into both bad belaying habits and a belief that climbing can't be done [safely] without such devices - nothing could be further from the truth. And, the more assistive belaying devices have become, the more people have been getting dropped.

You know that's a good point. I learned on an ATC 10 years ago and trust it. I distrust a hip belay mostly because I've never actually seen it, been taught it, or used it. Although I can appreciate that it probably does work, when done correctly.

I have the same attitude toward devices like a a grigri. I think they make people lazy, and promote bad technique. I cringe when newer climbers say they refer a grigri because they aren't comfortable on an ATC.

Brian L. wrote:You know that's a good point. I learned on an ATC 10 years ago and trust it. I distrust a hip belay mostly because I've never actually seen it, been taught it, or used it. Although I can appreciate that it probably does work, when done correctly.

It absolutely does work as well as any device in any form or difficulty of rock climbing with proper technique. However, even bitd most people did it badly with the rope on their waist. In fact, punch 'hip belay' into google images and most of the resulting images are people doing bad hip belays.

Universal Belay Standard = Don't drop your climber

DONE!

Exactly - that we agree on. Simple, yet not necessarily easy.

Healyje wrote: It absolutely does work as well as any device in any form or difficulty of rock climbing with proper technique. However, even bitd most people did it badly with the rope on their waist. In fact, punch 'hip belay' into google images and most of the resulting images are people doing bad hip belays.

Well BITD we always belayed around the waist, never the hip. Why? Because we top-roped people from the top, not the bottom of the cliff. The only place I saw it done your way was on the sandstone near London where they traditonally bottom-rope otherwise we were always perched at the top belayed to something when a waist belay is the correct way to do it

Jim Titt wrote: Well BITD we always belayed around the waist, never the hip. Why? Because we top-roped people from the top, not the bottom of the cliff. The only place I saw it done your way was on the sandstone near London where they traditionally bottom-rope otherwise we were always perched at the top belayed to something when a waist belay is the correct way to do it

Top or bottom, TR or lead, the waist is an incredibly piss poor place for the rope as it's all soft tissue and puts way too much stress on the belayer both during a fall and lowering if necessary. There are no circumstances where I would ever consider it the 'correct way to do it' except possibly some alpine situations.

Healyje wrote: Top or bottom, TR or lead, the waist is an incredibly piss poor place for the rope as it's all soft tissue...

This is true, but kids these days don't know where their actual waist is and think it's down around their upper hip.

Healyje wrote: Top or bottom, TR or lead, the waist is an incredibly piss poor place for the rope as it's all soft tissue and puts way too much stress on the belayer both during a fall and lowering if necessary. There are no circumstances where I would ever consider it the 'correct way to do it' except possibly some alpine situations.

Clearly we´re made of different stuff over here! In my youth as an assistant instructor we spent all day with fat punters hanging off our waists, got a few rope burns but my kidneys are still coping with the beer 40 years on. Never seen anyone hip belay except bottom roping on the sandstone and I´ve climbed in a lot of countries.

God, remind me to stay off all your lawns lol

...all this is yet another reason to follow some old school advice - when ever possible, DON'T FALL.
Climbing and falling and never going to be "safe".

This thread is a wonderful opportunity for old ball cuppers to flex their idiocy.

More things to discuss:

Taking out the anti lock breaks and seat-belts in our cars because they make reckless drivers. (hey, that's how grandma did it and that's how we will do it)

Getting rid of vaccines in order to bring one's self back to the nature. (shit was fine before modern medicine)

Getting rid of smoke detectors because they encourage lazy candle use in dorm rooms (Back in my day no one died in house fires)

Taking the Chlorine out of the public pools. (typhoid is a myth)

Shit, I am just getting started, don't ask me what I think of people using Camelots, your all a bunch of pu**es. In my day we used a knot in a hemp rope and it worked just fine.

You old traladytes crack me up.

Jim Titt wrote: Clearly we´re made of different stuff over here! In my youth as an assistant instructor we spent all day with fat punters hanging off our waists, got a few rope burns but my kidneys are still coping with the beer 40 years on. Never seen anyone hip belay except bottom roping on the sandstone and I´ve climbed in a lot of countries.

Can't imagine. Have held endless long and hard lead falls on hip belays. Wouldn't want to have experienced a single one of them with the rope on my waist.

P.S. Tim Lutz and JQ - You're quips would have a more bite to them if your quip-to-salient-content ratio ever managed rachet up over about 5% (that or if you could get up one of my routes, which is doubtful)

JKzxcv wrote: I can't speak for the old style plates (like in Healyje's picture) as I have never used one. I can't imagine that many modern climbers would want to use one.

There were all kinds of 'plates', all without springs. That picture is the latest incarnation of one that did. I have a couple for teaching, but don't use them myself as I know how to belay without locking an atc up. They are actually quite nice to use, however.

Tim, 603 posts and from perusing a sample of them I'm guessing the only ones that actually had climbing content are the ones the admins deleted. And really, your wit lacks, well, wit and has about as much bite as a three-legged Chihuahua. And NM? Going to have to ask some of the crew what the scoop is - should be interesting. Keep nipping, bound snag something sooner or later.

[ P.S. And as powhound can testify, this doesn't even register as shit-talking on the scale we use up this way. Dig a little deeper, I know you've got some serious shit in there somewhere. ]

Climbers are such badasses........on the Internet.