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C4 5/6 vs. Wild Country Tech Friend 5/6

Original Post
Emmett Wynn · · Albuquerque · Joined Nov 2015 · Points: 70

Trying to climbing some wide this summer. Which do people like?

Keith W · · Denvah · Joined May 2015 · Points: 95

I like the WC 6 better than the C4. Less bulky. Shorter stem.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

I've had some strange incidents in wide cracks with c4's walking, then turning sideways and falling deep in the crack still clipped to the rope while lowering. And I've had more than one vedauwoo hard man tell me the wild country resists walking better and that big Bros are the kings of staying put in deep offwidths. Still never got to place a wild country 6 but o picked up a set of big bros and really came to love those things, with the exception of the biggest one, it's was effing useless

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
turd furgeson wrote:I've had some strange incidents in wide cracks with c4's walking, then turning sideways and falling deep in the crack still clipped to the rope while lowering. And I've had more than one vedauwoo hard man tell me the wild country resists walking better
This. Basically, C4 above you, WC below you is the best way to go.
HJ Schmidt · · Bozeman, MT · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 0

I climb offwidths a fair bit and I like the wild country's a lot better. Walk a lot less and the wider axis just seems more solid. My two cents, and only an opinion.

Jim Bob Schell · · Laramie, WY · Joined Apr 2016 · Points: 40

I don't have experience with WC but the BD C4's work well here at Vedauwoo.  I would agree that they might walk if the you let the rope push them back as you climb above (not normally an issue though), but you end up just bumping your last big piece because someone told you it would protect with a #4 and doubles in hand sized gear.  Always take 2 5's... and the 6. 

Andrew Williams · · Concord, NH · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 625

I too have watched my #5 C4 walk and twist as I climbed above it. My WC's doesn't do that. IMO the C4's are not sprung heavily enough in the big sizes. 

Ian Lauer · · Yakima, WA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 15

I recently purchased both and after a couple of routes, I would echo others comments here. Buy one of both and be happy.

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

You should know that pre-C4 BD cams were quite a bit larger than the current 5 and 6. The old 5 is about a 5.7 on the C4 scale.

Daniel Heins · · Seattle · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 1,254
Gunkiemike wrote:

You should know that pre-C4 BD cams were quite a bit larger than the current 5 and 6. The old 5 is about a 5.7 on the C4 scale.

Yeah.  An old 3.5 is very nearly a current 4, a old 4.5 is very nearly a current 5, and an old 4 is in between.  I haven't handled an old 5 but that sounds right. 

Linnaeus · · ID · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 0

The WC 5 and 6 both have more width between the lobes (i.e. longer axle on the cam and more spacing between the outer lobes) than the C4 counterparts. I have both cams and although I don't use them very often, in #5 it's a toss up, but in #6 the WC does seem more stable. The C4 6 is surprising narrow between the lobes -- the ratio of axle length to cam size certainly doesn't grow linearly in the C4 line. 

Matt Kuehl · · Las Vegas · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 1,712

Just my 2 cents, but the single axel design is more vulnerable to getting messed up and inverting or twisting to the point of no longer holding.  I provoked this thing with my knee a bit climbing past it, but still, at least a C4 #5 would have at worst been stuck or hard to retrieve... which I prefer to being inverted and entirely useless in protecting the crux. I am glad I didn't blow it!  Probably just me being gassed but I wanted to share an experience that surprised me gear wise.  

rkrum · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 61

Late to the party, but I'd agree with ^^^. Its easier to jank a WC when you're desperate, and jank it in a way that is difficult to un-jank.

One thing the WC has over the bd is it will occasionally fit better in weird pods because of the single axle. They definitely are a little less prone to twisting out sideways and falling out, particularly in the 6. The WC 5 is really more of a BD old 4 sized piece IMO. It is more stable than the old 4 due to the wider axle and stiffer springs. Both kind of suck to bump, the WC sucks more. Pulling from above works better, but that doesn't always work too well in that size.

Almost any time I've had a 5 or 6 walk/twist sideways and fall out, it was both expected and more or less irrelevant. As in, it waited long enough until I had other cams in above, or falling would have been ill advised anyways.

The WC 6 gets so clusterfucked in everything else on the rack that I HATE that piece. There are like 2 climbs in the world that I can think of that I actually would bring this over the BD, and it's because the whole thing is tippy 6s that pod out inside - not good for the BD.

I personally prefer the BD 5 and 6 (or old 4, if it comes to that size) over the WC. If anyone wants to trade a BD 5/6 for a WC 5/6, let me know...

Linnaeus · · ID · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 0

Looks like there is now a DMM option for these sizes as well: 

http://dmmclimbing.com/news/2017/06/latest-dmm-products-at-outdoor-2017/

Danny Parker · · Teasdale, UT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 120

Hey, I've used both C4's and WC heavily all over the west and here's what I've found. 

C4 pros: With a double axle they can bump (slide) a bit better than the WC's, this makes them slightly more reliable in a tipped out situation. 

C4 cons: they can walk around especially on sandstone routes

WC pros: the lobes are farther apart, springs are stronger and in my opinion are bomber pieces within normal placements

WC cons: the single axel stem will eventually cause your cams to twist and look like Matt Kuehl's above. When tipped out or bumping it's common to have the lobes shift independently, causing one side to umbrella on you. 

I'll add big bro's since they were brought up...

Big bro pros: They're light weight and excellent guides at the lip of roof cracks to avoid your rope sucking your cams into the crack. 

Big bro cons: They in most situations are garbage. I've only fallen on one that has held. Don't climb on breezy days or make direct eye contact, otherwise they may betray you and simply fall out of the crack. 

Lastly since I'm on a roll here, Valley Giants!

Valley Giant pros: Vg's are actually very similar to the Wild country friends except with weaker springs. The U stem helps keep the massive weight of the lobes from becoming a floppy cam (like those Trango ones, remember that garbage?) 

Valley Giant cons: the springs wear out fairly quickly, many of my VG's need a little wiggle to help the lobes press against the walls (and trust me it's not just dirty, I keep them very clean). The other huge disappointment is in buying them, prepare to told you'll get it in three months, have the guy take your money and not reply to your emails. Six to Twelve months later you'll eventually get a reply that your cam is being shipped. This incident not only happened to me, but three other friends of mine. 

Best of luck on the wide climbing, I hope to see you stuck in a crack out in Vedauwoo or elsewhere. 

P.S. You may want to hold off on blowing all of your wide budget. I hear of some big things coming out of Black Diamond shortly.....

rkrum · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2013 · Points: 61

Big bros work, when placed correctly. A lot of times, that isn't possible in a crack that isn't desert sandstone. IE, a pink and green bro are not substitutes for the 5 and 6.

The umbrella-ing tipped out WC = BD cam that is upside down, sideways, or resting on top of the previous piece in my experience. Basically, yer gunna die with BD or WC. However, they do also umbrella if you try to push them along like a bd cam, and that is why I personally dislike them. I've found the WC 5 to be a little more useful as a specialty piece, and when you need it, you NEED it. But 99.7% of placements, a BD cam is likely fine.

I disagree though that the BD is more bomber when tippy than the WC. A tippy bd is especially prone to walking, twisting sideways, and falling out. The double axle design seems to promote walking more than a single axle, and the reduced spring tension of the bd doesn't help anything. And one more note on sizing between the two brands: The sizes stated on the mfg charts are not quite accurate in the real world. The WC 5 is defnitely smaller (not just max size, also minimum and by more than the stated 1.5mm) than the BD, and the WC 6 is definitely effective to a little larger size than the BD 6.

A VG is hardly a substitute for a 5 and 6 either :). That said, from what I can tell, Tom is greatly stepping up his customer service/running a business in general. I was one of the people who did have to wait a while, but it looks like that is changing. FWIW, I've not had any issues with spring tension, even on some approaching several years old. Definitely need to be kept clean though. I find a degreaser and NO lubricant to be the way to go.

Some guy on supertaco is making a big cam too - Merlin 8 I believe. I have yet to handle one.

Ian Lauer · · Yakima, WA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 15

Merlin 8 is headed my direction at this very moment. Will update soon......   

MP · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 2

have used a wild-country #5, bd #5 and #6, and valley giant #9. Currently own a merlin #8, but haven't climbed with it yet.

the wildcountry cams are lighter than the bds, but in my experience tended to not like being pushed-- the lobes would often do weird umbrella-type movements (see matt kuehl post). Ended up selling my big wildcountry cams due to this

the vg#9 is a burly cam that works well. But It is very heavy. 

the merlin #8 is a beautifully made cam. Double-axed, which is nice. very clever design lets you lock the lobes closed, which is nice when you're bringing this along on a multipitch.  Very light-- as light as a #6. Haven't used it yet, so I can't comment on its "climb-ability". 

best,

matt

Danny Parker · · Teasdale, UT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 120

MPECH, You should write a review as soon as you get around to climbing on the Merlin 8. I'm concerned that with such a big head and only a single stem (this is what I remember seeing) the cam will be really floppy and weak to place and bump. Hope it works out for you!

MP · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 2
Daniel S Parker wrote:

MPECH, You should write a review as soon as you get around to climbing on the Merlin 8. I'm concerned that with such a big head and only a single stem (this is what I remember seeing) the cam will be really floppy and weak to place and bump. Hope it works out for you!

sure, will do. 

It has a single stem, but double-axle design. The single stem looks disturbingly thin, but is made of solid stock and is very rigid. I think it will push pretty well, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

 

Danny Parker · · Teasdale, UT · Joined Dec 2011 · Points: 120

I actually recently was able climb with a pair of these Merlin cams so here's my review. 

Pro's 

They're so light! 

The springs are really powerful, this makes bumping the cam and the incidental flailing kicks less likely to dislodge the piece and become possessed. 

the stem is rigid and strong, placing this cam and bumping it will be way easier than a flexible stemmed cam with a heavy head. 

The locking trigger bar. No more fumbling with sticks and cords to lock up your devices!

Con's 

The head width profile is quite narrow, hopefully the strong springs will keep the cam from flopping sideways in funky terrain.

The trigger bar is uber tiny, (two fingers only) this combined with the extra strong springs made moving the cam quickly or while pumped really hard.

Ultimately, the price is pretty good, the customer service is reliable, and it's a great in-between size between BD #6's and VG 9's. I'd like to buy some if I can justify the costs..... So who'd like to buy some of my Valley Giants? ;)

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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