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Powder Project Bad Idea


Original Post
Don Morris · · Golden, CO · Joined Jun 2007 · Points: 1,236

Mountain Project wants to start a site called Powder Project so we can give away our dear powder stashes to the throngs who will then turn that beautiful place of solitude to a skied out circus. I, for one, will not share my well earned places to strangers. Below is my reasoning.

Thank you for the invite to participate in Powder Project. I have found MP and MTB to be helpful. However, I think sharing powder lines is not only wrong, but will be aggravating to me and others that have spent a great deal of time in the backcountry to find a non-tracked area.

Please understand that when someone skis in untracked powder, it is no longer a powder area or powder run. Climbing routes and riding single track does not change the essence for someone else. Not being the first, and only person in powder highly diminishes the experience.

I think this sight idea will not be neutral to me, but highly aggravating and confrontational.

Please let MP know what you think about it.

Don

Paul Zander · · Bern, CH · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 734

I guess I both agree and disagree. We will have to see what the site turns into.

There are skiing zones that I absolutely do not want on Powder Project or anywhere on the internet, and I hope that will still be the case. But there are also zones that are published on ten different websites and thousands of people know of, so I see no harm done in creating a website that provides quality and consistent information about these areas.

Its just like Mountain Project. There are lots of climbs not on mountain project, and climbs that never will be on mountain project. But I understand your point about skiing really being affected by who gets there first.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,014

I can't wait for the 'LongWalksontheBeach', 'CityStroll', 'MushroomHunting' and 'Panhandling' Projects :))

Donovan Allen · · Soft Lake City · Joined May 2012 · Points: 390

Dumpsterdivingproject

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,014

Fishin'HoleProject could be huge. and then there is PrisonEscapePlanProject, which considering the population, could be a winner.

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 210

I was pretty enticed by the idea of getting some free skis or something but kind of came to the same conclusion.

When I first started climbing a guidebook was sort of essential equipment (probably an unwanted change for older climbers).

With skiing I find there is way more the element of exploration and identifying the line and getting your head in the snow. I think the guidebook approach to skiing introduces dangerous elements that dumb down the experience and the people.

Way easier to not think about your surroundings when your head is in the approach description. I can only imagine the many resort skiers booting it up the middle of some open bowl because Powder Project told them to go that way.

I don't forsee it crowding up the deep backcountry spots but some of the easy access places that already have a lot of traffic will get tracked up (Berthoud, Loveland, etc.) Guess skier compaction will be nice...

I noticed there was Hiking Project, Trail Running Project, etc, guess if there is money to be made...I think I may buy up some URL's...

doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 269
DoNstamos wrote:Dumpsterdivingproject
Just like the Powder proj, it would be hard to convince people to give away their stashes...
Allen Sanderson · · On the road to perdition · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 1,188

Most of the lines in the Wasatch have been mapped on paper: wbskiing.com/papermap.asp? or online via google.

However my note to Nick was more of a concern of one of their prize sponsors as SkiUtah represents the ski resorts:

I find it very ironic and a bit apalling that some of the prizes you have gathered are from SkiUtah. SkiUtah is the antithesis of back county and side county. And while there may be in-bounds secret stashes they are pale in comparison to the backcounty and side county. For the vast majority of backbounty and side county skiers in Utah, Ski Utah has little respect because of their continued desires to expand and expand and expand (ala "One Wasatach" and "Ski Link").

DanielPerret · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 0

Snow conditions and ski lines are so much more ephemeral and dynamic than rock climbs, mtb trails, trail runs, etc. Powder Project pays some lip service by putting up the closest avy center forecast, but let's face it -- most people are way more likely to attempt a line during dangerous conditions if they have all the beta and trip reports the internet can provide.

I think Powder Project is a TERRIBLE idea, and not just because I don't want to see my favorite spots tracked up. I think it's dangerous, and will just feed the social media beast that already pushes people further than they would/should go. Not stoked on the go-pro-selfie-sticking-internet-horde.

Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,729
M Sprague wrote:` 'MushroomHunting'
I'm in.
Tom-onator · · trollfreesociety · Joined Feb 2010 · Points: 790

ElenatrollProject

A website dedicated to people routinely getting trolled by inane posting from an insane member of the medical community.

No, wait....

Paul Barnes · · Gainesville, Georgia · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 25

I'm not a skier.

With that out of the way...if you skiers like skiing as you now know it, you better damn well protect it from the masses. Look what climbing was vs what climbing is. Do you wanna see ski gyms? "Access Orgs" buying up your runs and grooming them to make them "better", "safer", or more "convenient"??? If you're on this site you're obviously a climber and should know full well what I'm talkin about.

Horrible idea. Don't do it.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
Don Morris wrote:Mountain Project wants to start a site called Powder Project so we can give away our dear powder stashes to the throngs who will then turn that beautiful place of solitude to a skied out circus. I, for one, will not share my well earned places to strangers. Below is my reasoning. Thank you for the invite to participate in Powder Project. I have found MP and MTB to be helpful. However, I think sharing powder lines is not only wrong, but will be aggravating to me and others that have spent a great deal of time in the backcountry to find a non-tracked area. Please understand that when someone skis in untracked powder, it is no longer a powder area or powder run. Climbing routes and riding single track does not change the essence for someone else. Not being the first, and only person in powder highly diminishes the experience. I think this sight idea will not be neutral to me, but highly aggravating and confrontational. Please let MP know what you think about it. Don
Have you been on the site? It's all standard fare so far, everything you can find online anyways. Berthoud? Dragon's Tail...oooh big secrets. Who's gonna post the most sweet BC stash that's only known to locals? Like maybe one douche? For those of you that are actually out there, it's already seen an uptick in number of folks out there. All the BC gear is sold in every store. It's not like this site is going to ruin it or break the camels back. Sure climbing is a shit show these days, but guess what? Still climbing...still intend to.

Besides who do you think is going to use it? The same people that are researching lines out there, buying the books, skiing, grandlines, TGR forums etc. I'd personally love to have a little more consolidated resource, like MP. George Dirth (RIP) was doing an amazing job creating the grandlines website for berthoud before he passed.

My initial big complaint and is very singular is the quality of info. I emailed the FB page to let them know the big roll on berthoud is NOT 30% Max Slope (17°) as listed. Everybody knows that it's a avy path. Poor info like that will get someone killed. I have concerns of people just following descriptions without proper training or sense. Not that it isn't happening now, but it might increase.

And I didn't see a place to add comments from the mobile site unless I missed it. I do 75% of my web browsing on my phone.
Bill Kirby · · San Francisco CA · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

The whiners cried back when the Whistler Blackcomb books and maps came out.. eee I'm old so let's say years ago. That information didn't change anything in regards to numbers. I was hoping people would read a book or a map and not get stuck down in Fitzsimmons Creek. it still happens.

Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425

Maybe we should be more concerned about all the resorts chopping up the "side country". Fritz's books can't even keep up with the acquisitions.

Cornelius Jefferson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 100
Tim Lutz wrote:really bad idea.
I have to agree. Primarily for safety concerns.

Quit whoring out our favorite places, Advertising Project.
Scott McMahon · · Boulder, CO · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,425
CJC wrote: I have to agree. Primarily for safety concerns. Quit whoring out our favorite places, Advertising Project.
First comment I totally agree.

Second comment ummm we are all on this site? Close the door everyone we want in is already here?
Jake Jones · · Richmond, VA · Joined Jul 2011 · Points: 1,729

Seems like kind of a paradox. If you ski there, and no one knows about it, and you want to keep it under wraps...

No brainer? Don't add it. I agree with the premise of not having a venue specifically for making things more public. But that's just me. It's kind of hypocritical because I do enjoy MP as a resource. I don't ski. All the areas I climb at have books on them. I can only think of one time that there was an actual pissing match about an "unknown" area on MP. It was in AZ.

Perhaps the only motivation for outing unknown areas is once one has skied it out, then you add it. Kind of like snagging all the decent FAs in an area then making it known. Or maybe I should just stfu because I don't ski.

jmeizis · · Colorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 210
Allen Sanderson wrote:Most of the lines in the Wasatch have been mapped on paper: wbskiing.com/papermap.asp? or online via google. However my note to Nick was more of a concern of one of their prize sponsors as SkiUtah represents the ski resorts: I find it very ironic and a bit apalling that some of the prizes you have gathered are from SkiUtah. SkiUtah is the antithesis of back county and side county. And while there may be in-bounds secret stashes they are pale in comparison to the backcounty and side county. For the vast majority of backbounty and side county skiers in Utah, Ski Utah has little respect because of their continued desires to expand and expand and expand (ala "One Wasatach" and "Ski Link").
The voracious appetite of the ski resorts to swallow what little is left of real backcountry in Utah is disturbing. They make it sound inevitable they'll get their way. I'm not a local but I hope it's not the case.

Ski resorts have the potential to be real backcountry facilitators like gyms do for rock climbing. Unfortunately, in most cases neither takes advantage of this in a very positive way.
Mike Marmar · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 67

Thank you Scott for being a voice of reason in this thread. At best PP could help prevent epics, accidents, avy deaths, and be a great forum for the BC community. At worst, someone's super top secret amazing powder stash gets outed. Big deal.

In the central wasatch at least, nearly every skiable line in the range has a name on the map, and 3 blog posts with step by step beta. I would love to have a single place to collect all this beta so I don't have to read through 4 pages of TGR babble to find the information I want.

Jon Frisby · · midwest/west circuit (Indiana) · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 120

I think the OP is right from a sharing powder perspective - though there could be other uses such as buy/sell and partner hookups as well as weather watch

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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