Belay technique discussion

Gyms, and the various staff at any given gym, will "fail" you for any random thing that the person administering the test deems unacceptable. 

If the ACC were to even try to cover all of said things then they would never be doing anything else for the rest of their existence. 

Gyms operate in the realm of insurance requirements, not reality. My gym ONLY allows people to do PBUS due to insurance stipulations, you will fail a belay check doing anything else.

Phil Tatel wrote:

Sorry to revive an old thread but I just needed to vent a bit because I just automatically failed the lead belay test at my gym for using the shuffle method (which my tester called “the death shuffle”) to constantly manage the slack on my belay and I’m so glad @khoi posted the video from the AAC with John Long explaining this method as acceptable under the Universal Belay Standard because I was pretty studious before my test and even took a course at my gym where the instructor must’ve seen me do this and never mentioned it as a problem. I completely understand that it’s not as safe as PBUS and I’m going to drill the habit out of me to be as safe as I can be, but I think the AAC needs to update their official YouTube video to explain that the shuffle isn’t currently acceptable by some gyms and climbers standards. 

I'm frustrated on your behalf. This is how I belay while lead belaying, including in every gym I climb at. Granted, that isn't a large number of gyms, but I've used that method for every lead belay test I've ever taken. Most gyms dislike it for the top rope test though. I always find that odd.

Recently I had someone fall right as I slacked my grip to slide. I had him locked off before I even knew he fell because the natural motion of that slide has you gripping after the slide, which happens very quickly. This was on top rope, but I stand by it for both.

runout wrote: *getting popcorn*

Almost brought tears to my eyes reading that.

Gabe Schwartz wrote:

I'm frustrated on your behalf. This is how I belay while lead belaying, including in every gym I climb at. Granted, that isn't a large number of gyms, but I've used that method for every lead belay test I've ever taken. Most gyms dislike it for the top rope test though. I always find that odd.

Pure curiosity question:  if you're belaying a leader at a gym, how are you supposed to pay out slack quickly without slackening the grip on the brake strand? Especially with a grigri where you have to temporarily defeat the device?

And do gyms also not allow the shuffle if you're using a grigri for TR belay? It takes almost no force to engage the device.

I don't think I have a single partner who does anything other than the shuffle with any device. 

Cornelius Yukon wrote:

I was also corrected by the same staff member for, "loading my device backwards," while having my 35-pound, 4-year old daughter on top-rope with the smooth side of the ATC on the brake strand (not the teeth). With the fuzzy 10mm gym ropes, I had to actively pull rope through the device to lower her.

Ohhh that has definitely happened to me before, at a climbing gym in Virginia where I was traveling for work. Sometimes it's just easier to turn the ATC around instead of explaining the difference in friction to a gym employee.

Cornelius Yukon wrote:

I was also corrected by the same staff member for, "loading my device backwards," while having my 35-pound, 4-year old daughter on top-rope with the smooth side of the ATC on the brake strand (not the teeth). With the fuzzy 10mm gym ropes, I had to actively pull rope through the device to lower her.

It would've probably completely blue-screened that poor guy if I belayed with a Giga Jul.

Next time bring a "toothless" tube style device... 

drew A wrote:

Pure curiosity question:  if you're belaying a leader at a gym, how are you supposed to pay out slack quickly without slackening the grip on the brake strand? Especially with a grigri where you have to temporarily defeat the device.

I honestly do not know. To me, it's more dangerous to not be able to feed out slack quickly. Like I said, this is how I belay 100% of the time.

Time for the belayer to dump the princess 

Dylan McIntosh wrote:

Gyms operate in the realm of insurance requirements, not reality. My gym ONLY allows people to do PBUS due to insurance stipulations, you will fail a belay check doing anything else.

As an actuary I highly doubt carriers are organized enough to care or that it would even make sense to specify a belay style. The data would be extremely uncredible self reported information if it did exist. People blame insurance companies for random guidelines so they don't have to tell their employees the real reason; that they don't trust them to know more than one technique. 

Cornelius Yukon wrote:

I was also corrected by the same staff member for, "loading my device backwards," while having my 35-pound, 4-year old daughter on top-rope with the smooth side of the ATC on the brake strand (not the teeth). With the fuzzy 10mm gym ropes, I had to actively pull rope through the device to lower her.

You could show him/her the instruction manual.  Black Diamond calls that regular friction mode (RFM).  The teeth side is high friction mode (HFM).

https://blackdiamond-web.cdn.prismic.io/blackdiamond-web/3a89e76d-b319-4835-9429-dbbd65920f9b_M10797_B_ATC_IS-WEB.pdf

Robert P wrote:

I also tie-in with a rethreaded bowline without a "safety" knot, which is a no go at the gym- we're livin' on the edge out here.

A stopper knot on a bowline is critical. I use a follow through bowline as well, and I know it would have to do an impossible amount of unraveling to come untied, but you still tie a stopper knot.

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

A stopper knot on a bowline is critical. I use a follow through bowline as well, and I know it would have to do an impossible amount of unraveling to come untied, but you still tie a stopper knot.

Never.

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

 I can't believe how big of a troll you are.

And you still haven't figured what a troll is.

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

A stopper knot on a bowline is critical. I use a follow through bowline as well, and I know it would have to do an impossible amount of unraveling to come untied, but you still tie a stopper knot.

A stopper knot on a rethreaded bowline is absolutely unnecessary.

I climbed in the US for years and now in Germany for years. The method in Germany shown to new climbers as recommended by the DAV (German Alpine Club) is called the tunnelling brake hand. The brake hand pulls out the slack in an outward and downward arc (never higher than the sternum), then the brake hand "tunnels" back up the rope closer to the device ready for what comes next. It’s all one-handed. Obviously, to be done right the bake hand should never ever open, hence the name tunnel. I'm not going to say its perfectly safe because in Germany there are many belay accidents too.

Comparing the PBUS method and it though, I like that the brake hand is quickly down below the device and not lingering high waiting for the other hand. The moment of exposure is kept short. The brake hand gets down below the device fast. Sure, in Germany I do observe a lot of people with sloppy tunnelling, meaning their hand is sort of open. I think a badly executed PBUS (Pull, Brake, Under, Slide) is worse than a badly executed tunnelling method as the brake hand is just often too high in the Brake position lingering there for the other hand for the Under and Slide parts. I now shuffle all the time.

JKzxcv wrote: Why do I think loosening the brake hand is not a good safety practice?

Out of interest, How do you keep both hands on the rope when belaying with half ropes, taking in on one strand and giving out on the other to let someone clip?

Tim Parkin wrote:

Out of interest, How do you keep both hands on the rope when belaying with half ropes, taking in on one strand and giving out on the other to let someone clip?

When I belay with doubles, I don't take in the rope that just got clipped. I feed the other out until they are even again and continue belaying as normal. It's too complicated otherwise to save 2-5' off of a potential small fall.