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Why monopoints?


doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 277
Warbonnet wrote: Even when I'm barbecuing with my old duals.
I'd like to get a little tutorial on grilling hot-dogs please! Preferrably with photos.
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
doligo wrote: I'd like to get a little tutorial on grilling hot-dogs please! Preferrably with photos.
Doligo, we only barbecue from a single Snarg on the first pitch of Winter Dance...will send an invite.

Kitty, Jeff and all: wouldn't you agree that the boot is part and parcel of the "system" (regardless of the uber climbers such as yourself who (deservedly) can get anything they want" in terms of equipment?. But am interested in your "Chicks with Picks" classes; monos or duals or both? If a student starts out with one, do they tend to stick with that configuration?

Kitty does a good job in explaining the difference between "vertical duals" versus "horizontal duals"....try them both cuz they don't climb the same (at least in my experience). Having said that, I can't imagine one doing a hip scum with horizontal duals on a tiny rock or ice knob; I'd bet on them skating.....could be wrong....maybe you are just using ONE of the duals in this case?

What do you think of the newer crampons wherein an inner "tooth" can be adjusted shorter or longer notwithstanding the hassle of doing so. (I think they are a bit gimmicky, frankly). Kitty, we both know (as do hundreds following this string) some of the super giants (female and male) who use modular crampons. I also know (& you do too) super pros who have recently changed to monos, asking the question: "Why did I wait so long"?

Re: taking your 3 person poll about monos v. duals, our mutual friend Bill Belcourt (BD) not long ago didn't hesitate on a hot summer night: monos (Stingers). They changed my game, first time out, on steep, bullet ice and on anything but rotten slush.

My experience is that mono points are the only way to go in trashing up and through heavy chandeliered ice. Duals guarantee an excavation job (but chandeliers do any way).
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Kirby1013 wrote:Cassin Bladerunners are the monopoint crampons to buy.
Kirby, Kirby, my dear friend Kirby (OK, I liked the X-Dreams);

Your Cassin Bladerunners have two faults: 1) the front points remind me of an old girlfriend, and 2) I can't imagine the maze of front points won't ice up after 3-10 kicks.

Cassin Blade Runner Crampons

Being a BD Stinger (pic below) fan, they have a unique feature: (besides being stainless).....notice how the front points angle "inwards" a bit. I think anyone who has seriously tried these and compared them to other crampons (there are other good ones out there), the inward direction can make a real difference).

Black Diamond Stainless Steel Stinger Crampons

BD Stingers - bottom view
Bill Kirby · · Baltimore Maryland · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

I can't believe I woke up this early and are talking bout crampons!

I sold my Stingers.. well gave them away to a friend so you know how I feel. Different stokes and all that if you tried the Bladerunners and Stingers or Darts. It's interesting to hear different opinions.

I think the Bladerunners feel great. They really shine on thin and/or chandeliered ice. I wore one Stinger and one Bladerunner on a 5. The BD pon blew out while the Cassin never did. I used them with boots l felt never fit right. I use those Scarpas everyday now since strapping a pair of Bladerunners to them.

I always say im no expert so try as many monos and duals as you can and make the decision for yourself.

Warbonnet, What time is it in SLC? Go to bed! Haha

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Kirby, you just go me going, again.

Ok, off to bed with one Bladerunner on, a Cassin, both stuffed inside boots that don't fit. I'll let you know how it goes.

PS: I've seen metal testing on Darts and they seem on the weak side (but someone straighten me out).

Warbonnet

Woodchuck ATC · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 3,110

Never liked the Darts,,,,still stick by my now classic( over 5 years old gear is 'classic' around here, right?) Rambo IV's. Love the mono, and all those forward facing additional teeth, be they short,med, or long; all work well in assisting the 'stick' for the feet.

iceman777 · · Colorado Springs · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 60

Sabertooths ,foot fangs , Trango harpoons, then the Rambo 1,2&3 family , then Darts .

I don't understand what the strength problem you are referring to on the darts is all about , I've had mine on rock n ice now for 4+ years with no problems ? Hmmm .

Anyway I purchased the darts when I couldn't get my mits on a pair of Rambo 4s , was skeptical of the darts because there not ridged (semi ridged) but decided to give them a try , first day out I was so impressed with there performance I bought a second set .this was before I realized I could just purchase the front parts .(duh)

I still like the Rambos as long as you cut that stupid little secondary front claw thingy off the newest version .It serves no purpose to me other than get in the way of a good foot placement . IMHO it's gimmicky . Put on there to maybe convert the dual point crowd. Idk.

Warbonnet pretty much nailed it IMHO , ill go farther to say that people like Will Gad and company could prolly climb anything they want with steak knives and a set of hobnailed boots .so I take there advice with a grain of salt as it really dosnt apply to me anyway .there all fantastic climbers but there sponsored climbers as well so again everything with a grain of salt for me . One main point that comes to mind for me anyway is MR Gadd made a statement in his ice and mixed climbing book challenging every ice climber to try horizontals for steep ice , Well I did and to me they suck for everything except steep snow. I can understand his point though if your coming to ice climbing from rock climbing. Again for me personally they just don't cut it .

What matters is what you believe in your mind will work , if you think you can only climb WI whatever M whatever in sabertooths and Nomics then that's what you will use . Likewise if you believe that you climb your hardest with Rambos and X-Dreams or any combo of tool or crampon , then that's where your loyalty will be . I've seen this on so many levels its not funny . So use whatever you believe in is my mantra . Don't believe me just look back at all the hard ice n mixed routes done with lesser gear

So here it is for me .

I had an old set of Rambos that still had the dual point set up and took them out for a spin one day just to see if I was really missing something , all I discovered was it felt like I had to kick my ass off to get a good placement , something I don't need to do with monos . I use monos for everything from early season to wet/ rotten/thin ice to what little mixed climbing I do now .why because for me they just work .

Just Solo · · Colorado Springs · Joined Nov 2003 · Points: 80

Always a good discussion, but it's kinda like the ski length "debate". Considering most prominent, classic ice climbs of our generation were done on VASTLY inferior tools with incredible form, I think the debate is a little moot. It really boils down to personal preference. I use all three. Straight up steel Sabertooths when I'm in the mood, Charlet M10 monos (heavy, but super solid) and Grivel G14s verts in dual mode. Usually, the Grivel's are on my feet the most. On pure ice, overall, I think the differences are minimal, though conditions can be a consideration. Mixed, I think monos are best for two reasons, precision (which is a less an issue on pure ice) and replacement cost. But, as I said, it boils down to personal preference, and to a degree, style. I know a few top notch climbers that climb exclusively on dual vertical points. YMMV...

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Just Solo wrote: Considering most prominent, classic ice climbs of our generation were done on VASTLY inferior tools with incredible form, I think the debate is a little moot. ...

Just Solo, couldn't agree with you more. While we throw our opinions at each other, the twain do meet and I think you summarized it nicely. Even though a BD Stinger fan, it took me thru a number of brands & types to dial into what works for me UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. I think if people get wedded to one type (mono v. dual or double verticals v. horizontals) they rob themselves of the opportunity to learn from them all.

I got interested this weekend in the past history of crampons (fascinating) and came up with several images that put ours in perspective. But I also tried to put my head inside theirs wondering what they were thinking insofar as "are these working"; "how can they be improved"?

Some of these are really old photos.......mid 1850's, maybe earlier (if anyone has more info, weigh in); the "newer" boots & crampons are interesting cuz of how damn sharp the crampons are. If I can fit a fifth in here, I will; will be a hob nail boot but with a fashion twist; I might add a few other jewels and let's ask ourselves (In a positive way, i.e., "how can I walk on this snow & ice") cuz we've all had the same thoughts but with different technology & techniques (& dare I say fear).

Warbonnet.

Old wooden block crampons (year????)

Looks like it was made from a beer can but a lot of work into making these.

A little more modern.....

The fashion trend

These were probably my first!!! (Notice they hadn't joined the main frame near the front points....a bit odd, eh?

Super old...you can see the rings on the sides. And they are DUAL front points!!!

Damn they're sharp!

And finally, IN ACTION!!!!! (Many difficult routes were put up back in the day that still stand as test pieces even with the best of gummy shoes.
Just Solo · · Colorado Springs · Joined Nov 2003 · Points: 80
Warbonnet wrote: Just Solo, couldn't agree with you more. While we throw our opinions at each other, the twain do meet and I think you summarized it nicely. Even though a BD Stinger fan, it took me thru a number of brands & types to dial into what works for me UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. I think if people get wedded to one type (mono v. dual or double verticals v. horizontals) they rob themselves of the opportunity to learn from them all. I got interested this weekend in the past history of crampons (fascinating) and came up with several images that put ours in perspective. But I also tried to put my head inside theirs wondering what they were thinking insofar as "are these working"; "how can they be improved"? Some of these are really old photos.......mid 1850's, maybe earlier (if anyone has more info, weigh in); the "newer" boots & crampons are interesting cuz of how damn sharp the crampons are. If I can fit a fifth in here, I will; will be a hob nail boot but with a fashion twist; I might add a few other jewels and let's ask ourselves (In a positive way, i.e., "how can I walk on this snow & ice") cuz we've all had the same thoughts but with different technology & techniques (& dare I say fear). Warbonnet.
GREAT POST!!! This is when we need a "like" button!!! Love those "modern" hobnails!
Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

"Just Solo: Considering most prominent, classic ice climbs of our generation were done on VASTLY inferior tools with incredible form, I think the debate is a little moot."

___________________________

Just Solo: To emphasize my agreement with you, I'll add this as evidence to your comment re: "....VASTLY inferior tools..." (but of vastly earlier generations):

___________________________

I think she did just fine with what she had....and probably loved every second of it, and even if she didn't, she pushed on. (No, I am not a woman, just a man who has tremendous respect for women climbers and mountaineers, our peers).

Annie Beck Smith

At the age of 44, college professor and lecturer Annie Smith Peck decided to take up mountain climbing, becoming the third woman in history to scale the Swiss Matterhorn—and the first to do so wearing pants, instead of a skirt. In 1908, at the age of 58, she became the first person to ascend Mount Huascaran in Peru. She made her final ascent, of New Hampshire's Mount Madison, at the age of 82.

Can't resist another coupla photos:

Three women on Ben Nevis, 1929

And one more:

The same three women scratching their way across wind whipped Ben Nevis, 1929. "Thanks for asking guys, but our high heels are just fine. How about your triple insulated boots with the groovy logo? OK? Are you OK? Need some help?"

Same three women crawling Ben Nevis. Note the high heels.
Just Solo · · Colorado Springs · Joined Nov 2003 · Points: 80

COOL!!

Man I want one of those old, wooden handled, Alpenstocks! They are too freakin' cool!

Love that pic of the woman on Ben Nevis!

If I only had the BALLS these women had!!!

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630
Just Solo wrote:COOL!! Man I want one of those old, wooden handled, Alpenstocks! They are too freakin' cool! Love that pic of the woman on Ben Nevis! If I only had the BALLS these women had!!!
Agree with all you say. I look at the Ben Nevis photos all the time. There are stories there. (A friend pointed out that the leader has a rope above her but....duh....there were four of them, hence, one to take the photo. The leader in the pic is trying to do her own thing and to me, it's clear she's trying to work it out.

I wonder how they (or any of that generation) would do if we/they swapped out our new equipment this string is talking about and have a go at it? Once they got a hang of it, I think they'd kick our butts; we have every toy, they had few.

This string began with "Why mono points"? Hell, these women would probably put either kind on backwards and STILL out climb us.

And sans helmets. Hell, I wouldn't even think of walking near Ben Nevis w/o a helmet.
Just Solo · · Colorado Springs · Joined Nov 2003 · Points: 80

Looking closer at the pic with the three women, it looks like they are roped together. Simul-climbing on Ben Nevis!! Possibly on a rope team of 5 or more,(rope above, picture taker. Certainly no one belaying it would seem.

Warbonnet · · Utah, India and Cambodia · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 630

Hadn't noticed it but I think you're right. The pic just reeks of "we're gonna do this, any questions"?

There's so much going on....it's hard to take it all in. The leader is reaching way out/up there, obviously trying to hook something she has her eye on and her right foot is placed perfectly. And you're right: simulclimbing.....if the 2nd or 3rd slipped, the leader would come off. Yikes.

That's the story I see anyway...and that's probably a fraction of it.

And you're right......it's a party of 5, not 4 as I first thought.

They have bigger brass ones than.....

mark55401 · · Minneapolis · Joined May 2011 · Points: 273

I didn't consider monopoints until a couple seasons ago when I found myself in Canmore about to get on a mixed climb. I had Cyborgs with me, but my experience with mixed climbing on Cyborgs at Sandstone, Minnesota, was not a good one: At a crux I found that a mandatory divot would accept only one point, and that the second point worked only to dislodge the first point from that divot. So I went to the local ski shop in Canmore and rented some beater monopoints (Petzl Dart) for $5 a day. They worked phenomenally well -- far better on mixed terrain than the dual points would have performed, with little if any diminution on pure ice. [My theory is that on pure ice the action lies mainly in the secondary points, so it really doesn't matter (much) if the front points are mono- or dual-].

This theory/perspective is corroborated by Colin Haley, fresh from his Begguya (Mount Hunter) solo in the Alaska Range. He writes: "I prefer mono points for mixed climbing, and dual points for pure ice climbing. I think that the advantage of mono points on mixed terrain is greater than the advantage of dual points on pure ice."

Approaching the 2017-18 season, I likely will be on monopoints most of the time, wearing dual points only when on 100% waterfall ice.

Dave Deming · · Grand Junction CO · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 25

Sadly, it was a good enough ski season this year, and time was limited (due to 1 year old daughter), but I'm ready for the 2017-18 ice season.

JasonSH · · unknown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 90
Bill Kirby wrote: Monopoints are superior over duals when climbing rock hard ice. Monos are great for any grade. Not sure why anyone would feel less secure on a 2 than a 4. WI2 is unsafe dumb shit run it out time for me so... I would go out and try a pair of monos and make up your own mind. I think you would be able to tell the difference in a couple laps especially if it's really cold out that day. Oh, and to answer your next question... Cassin Bladerunners are the monopoint crampons to buy. Just don't tell the wife and/or girlfriend how much money there were. They'll figure it out after three weeks of not eating out and staying in on the weekends. By then you have realized it was worth the grief!

Saw they offer size 1..size 2...and something referred to as the Alpine model.  What's the difference? I cabt seem to find a description on the Cassin site? 

Bill Kirby · · Baltimore Maryland · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
JasonSH wrote:

Saw they offer size 1..size 2...and something referred to as the Alpine model.  What's the difference? I cabt seem to find a description on the Cassin site? 

Size 1 is for boots size 37-46 and size 2 is for sizes 40-49

The Alpine model comes with dual horizontal points as well as vertical points.

It was great reading through this again. I forgot how much I used to pimp out Cassin

JasonSH · · unknown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 90
Bill Kirby wrote:

Size 1 is for boots size 37-46 and size 2 is for sizes 40-49

The Alpine model comes with dual horizontal points as well as vertical points.

It was great reading through this again. I forgot how much I used to pimp out Cassin

Thanks Bill!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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