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Has Anyone Used these New Style Rawl Bolts?


Original Post
Thomas Beck · · Las Vegas, Nevada · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,040

These are 1/2" dia by 3 1/2" long Powers Rawl bolts bought on Tuesday.

What a surprise when I opened the box this evening! They are a little awkward to assemble. I wonder about the plastic end.

Box the bolts came in

Bolt with hanger

Show how much the bolt thread is engaged with hanger installed

Side Photo
JJ Schlick · · Flagstaff, AZ · Joined May 2006 · Points: 11,220

I like the looks of the blue cap on the end. Simple anti-spinning technology.

Derek Lawrence · · Bailey · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 470

I've used them without a problem in Devils Head granite and Shelf Road limestone. They do seem to grab and tighten down quickly.

Benjamin Chapman · · Small Town, USA · Joined Jan 2007 · Points: 13,397

The blue cap on the end is to keep dust and grit out of the threads as you're placing the bolt.

Derek Lawrence · · Bailey · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 470
Benjamin Chapman wrote:The blue cap on the end is to keep dust and grit out of the threads as you're placing the bolt.
Those aren't the same blue caps as you're probably used to. Rather than just filling in the space in the end of the wedge piece (to keep dust out...), the caps on these are a plastic nut, open at the end and larger than the wedge. I'm sure an engineer-type could explain it better than me how it works better than the old design.
Ian Caldwell · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2010 · Points: 0

I have placed a handful of them. Not sure about keeping the washer on the bolt. When you leave the washer on it is hard to keep the plastic cap on the end, because you only get about 1 thread holding it in place before tightening it. But if you are careful, it works just fine.

They are way easier to start hammering. The cone is smaller, so you can push it in about 1/4 before you start hammering. Allows you to work with one hand, because the bolt will stay in place without falling out. Then you can start hammering. Works really well on steep rock which you can barely keep yourself close enough to the rock. With the old ones I needed both hands to get the bolt started.

The bolt is a larger head. You need a 5/8 socket. I was not happy when I pulled out the 9/16 socket and realized it did not fit.

My understanding is they are better for standing up to earthquakes in construction use. The bolt is a higher grade. The specs show it as stronger than the old ones.

Chris Vinson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 75

You need a 5/8 socket. I was not happy when I pulled out the 9/16 socket and realized it did not fit. /quote>

+1

I also liked how you tossed the washer. :)

Tzilla Rapdrilla · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 840

These new bolts are a vast improvement over the older design. They drive much easier and I have yet to have problems with one tightening down. The new design seems to do a much better job of keeping dust and grit out of the threads. ClimbTech is a great source for these anchors.

Thomas Beck · · Las Vegas, Nevada · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,040

I have placed about 10 of these new style Rawls now. I find I can get about 2 1/2 threads on the plastic and still get into a 1/2" dia. hole. I kept the washer on. Yep, 5/8 wrench. Good thing I checked before humping the load out to the crag.

Thomas Beck · · Las Vegas, Nevada · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 1,040

Killis,

You gotta call Fasco in Vegas and see. When I got these late July the Fasco sales rep said Powers Rawl was undergoing re-organization. I installed in pristine granite at Courtright.

mountainproject.com/v/10832…

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,348
Ian Caldwell wrote:I have placed a handful of them. Not sure about keeping the washer on the bolt. When you leave the washer on it is hard to keep the plastic cap on the end, because you only get about 1 thread holding it in place before tightening it.
Are you using a 1/2" hanger (assuming a 1/2" bolt)? If not, switch, it will improve the situation as the hanger wont take up thread space.
Kirk Miller · · Golden, CO · Joined May 2003 · Points: 1,570

Never had any trouble placing the older style 1/2 inch powers bolts. When I've removed them, the old style sleeves came out pretty easily.

Will the new design be harder to remove when they need to be replaced someday?
Anybody tried taking these out???

Will the plastic sleeve in the center of the hole be a problem? After removing the initial steel sleeve and the plastic sleeve, will it be a pain to remove the expansion sleeve (buried near the bottom of the hole)?

David Quinn · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 445

The Power Bolt + has a slightly lower strength ratings than the standard Power bolt. The PB + has a tension strength rating of 4905 lbs to the standard PB's 6520 lbs. The shear is much closer between the two at 8030 lbs for the PB + and 8225 lbs for the standard PB. These are the ratings from Powers Fasteners and are for 4000 PSI concrete, 1/2" ss bolts with a min. embedment of 2 1/2". 4000 PSI concrete could be considered as a medium hardness stone. For softer stone, or lesser PSI concrete, the ratings go down. The PB + should be bomber. Keep in mind that ratings are for bolts placed with a specific torque. PB & PB + are torque controlled bolts and for optimum performance should be torqued to 40 ft-lbs for the PB + and 45 ft -lbs for the standard PB, admittedly I have never torqued any that I have placed. Which bolt is best? I prefer the standard PB, but I guess it comes down to price, as performance seems very close. If you are placing bolts in softer stone such as sandstone or limestone I would recommend using the Fixe Glue in with Powers glue or Redhead A7 epoxy, Powers Glue is available from Fixe.com I get A7 Epoxy from Toolup.com Which ever type of bolt you choose, ALWAYS use Stainless. Don't be tempted by the cheaper prices of plated steel or plain steel. They do not last anywhere near as long. Also most hangers are SS, so there is the issue of dis-similar metals to confront. If you use glue in bolts, be absolutely certain to counter sink the eye of the bolt by at least the diameter of the bolt. This increases the strength and reduces the likely hood of failure. This is a great article published by American Safe climbing on placing glue in bolts. Good stuff to know.
safeclimbing.org/education/…

I am adding a photo of a wave style bolt, (may not have actually been a Wave bolt) that was not counter sunk from the article.

A wave style bolt failure due not being counter sunk. May not have been an actual wave bolt. Picture from the ASC article - safeclimbing.org/education/…
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

That isn´t a Wave Bolt, it´s one of mine (Bolt Products). It hasn´t failed, this picture is at a load of 5660lbs (ca 25kN) which is the requirement. The tester failed to extract or break the bolt.
We do not recommend sinking the bolt eye and it makes no difference to the strength, as you can see clearly the rock has failed first and at this load this occurs with all bolt types.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 4,994

What about countersinking to reduce the visual impact and the chance of the biner unclipping its self? Obviously over countersinking would be bad, making it harder to clip, and perhaps making the biner not set correctly and making it torque.

I would think slightly countersinking your bolts would help reduce the twisting action on the bolt, which with the thinner stock and shape might have an effect over time.

mattm · · TX · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,390
M Sprague wrote:What about countersinking to reduce the visual impact and the chance of the biner unclipping its self? Obviously over countersinking would be bad, making it harder to clip, and perhaps making the biner not set correctly and making it torque. I would think slightly countersinking your bolts would help reduce the twisting action on the bolt, which with the thinner stock and shape might have an effect over time.
The Glue Ins are MUCH lower impact visually than any hanger-based bolt. Countersinking would do very little to further reduce the visual impact. I don't counter-sink Bühler-Style bolts and they are damn hard to spot from the ground and even on route. I think some of this has to do with them not having flat surfaces to act as a reflective surface.

The Bühler Style (parallel leg) style bolts all have "Built In" resistance to torque. The Fixe/Petzl single leg ones are more of an issue. I'm sure Jim can comment on that more than I though!

Not sure about unclipping but I haven't seen any issues with unclipping. Certainly no more so than normal hangers.

12mm Tit Bolt with SS QL and A7 Glue
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
M Sprague wrote:What about countersinking to reduce the visual impact and the chance of the biner unclipping its self? Obviously over countersinking would be bad, making it harder to clip, and perhaps making the biner not set correctly and making it torque. I would think slightly countersinking your bolts would help reduce the twisting action on the bolt, which with the thinner stock and shape might have an effect over time.
Countersink the bolt and the gate is more likely to rub on the rock and open.
You can twist the bolts further, they don´t mind (I could put another 360° twist in before they start to complain a bit!).
Countersinking has another downside, it makes it hard to cut them of and core drill them out if required and as I said, it doesn´t make the bolts any stronger, in fact in rock with a hard skin such as sandstone it is thought to make the placement weaker though personally I wouldn´t think it makes much difference at all either way.
For areas with really soft rock where cracking below the bolt is unsightly we make much bigger bolts up to 12mm single bar ones which pretty well eliminates the flexing you get with the thinner bolts.
David Quinn · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 445

So Jim, you have found or do you feel that loads applied via a swinging fall, which would put a twisting torque on the bolt do not achieve any benefit from counter sinking either? that would be good to know. Do you think that this would apply to standard "no shoulder" eye bolts as well? We use mostly 1/2" x 4" no shoulder galvanized eye bolts which we have always counter sunk. Do you think it is better not to counter sink these types of bolts as well?

jasoncm · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2012 · Points: 30

David,

A ring bolt with a single round shaft doesn't have enough area keying into the glue. A rotational force on single shafted non countersunk bolt can break the glue bond. Jim Titts twisted rings key into the glue massively and you will twist up the ring and snap it before breaking the glue bond.

I recently spent 3 months travelling around the US. I can't believe more people don't spent the effort to put in glue-in bolts as they are pretty much set and forget. So many bolts that I clipped were way less than bomber.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
David Quinn wrote:So Jim, you have found or do you feel that loads applied via a swinging fall, which would put a twisting torque on the bolt do not achieve any benefit from counter sinking either? that would be good to know. Do you think that this would apply to standard "no shoulder" eye bolts as well? We use mostly 1/2" x 4" no shoulder galvanized eye bolts which we have always counter sunk. Do you think it is better not to counter sink these types of bolts as well?
I´d countersink a standard eye bolt as normally there´s nothing really stopping them turning, `proper´single stem bolts are normally cut at 45° at the end to stop them turning so that would be the other way to go (there is a torque test for the UIAA Safety Label). The hassle with eye bolts with a round eye that aren´t sunk a bit is the rope tends to get jammed in the angle between the bolt eye and the rock, either when you want to go up or when you pull the rope down. The Fixe 10mm bolt has the same problem.
kennyp · · Las Cruces · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 75

Back to the original topic... Here are a few pictures showing the differences between the new and old 3/8 powers bolt. Has anybody noticed that the actual bolt on the new style is much narrower than the old style? Also the expansion sleeve is much smaller on the new style, making these seem more like a wedge bolt than a full sleeve anchor.

New 3/8 Powers on the left, old 3/8 powers on the right

Showing how the new 3/8 bolt is much narrower than the old 3/8 bolt
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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