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Draws Stolen after left due to thunderstorm July 3rd, Easter Rock


germsauce Epstein · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 55

Second that James is a truly upstanding and nice guy, and a very strong climber who has been around long enough to understand what makes for a positive climber culture.

Second those who think that stealing is fucked up. We leave the bolt hangers on routes too, does that mean I should be cruising around with a wrench taking those off routes because some idiot rube left them up there to be taken (aka the nice person who equipped the route?).

Booty'd gear is nice, but if you are in this game for the long haul, you'll know that the climbing scene is a close knit, tight group of mostly really great people who I do NOT think would steal from one another. If you are out there for the booty, or include the definition of booty as gear hanging from a bolt, or obviously recently bailed on due to weather or an accident, you are also outing yourself as a d-bag wannabe who probably drinks fruit-infused beers with his harness on at the local pub.

Cornelius Jefferson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 105

Classy thing to do would be to return the draws or not take them in the first place. A lot of people aren't big into being classy though so best to take your stuff with you or it will probably be taken.

Not a big fan of the endless 'lost gear' threads and the expectation of returned gear by careless climbers. Its gotten silly. But climbers getting stormed off a cliff and possibly running for their lives is a pretty shitty situation to take advantage of. We should try to be good to each other within reason, no? Carelessness is one thing, acts of nature are another. After a storm I'd expect a climber to return for their gear ASAP so grabbing it right away is pretty cold.

chuffnugget · · Bolder, CO · Joined Sep 2011 · Points: 0
Matt N wrote:Since when does a rating matter regarding booty? Unless its for a rescue/accident, bail = booty.
The 1980s called, they want their 'ethics back.
Shirtless Mike · · Denver, CO · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 5,115

To all the draw stealing proponents, do you walk around stealing packs and approach shoes at trad areas? Do you think it's ok to snag gear at the base of a multi-pitch? If you find a cached drill or rope, do you steal that as well? Do you look for headlamps on routes at night, so you can run up to the base and steal their packs and shoes?

It is sad to see the logic that some climber's use to justify theft.

doug rouse · · Denver, CO. · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 660

This has certainly ventured far afield. I may add that Easter Rock faces North-North-East...making sudden storms a real possibility due to the fact you cannot see to the West. There will never be a concensus regarding booty, and it will always become an issue of personal integrity. At the end of the day, can you live with yourself? Would anyone really want to climb with the guy whose philosophy is take it because it's there? Oh, and Go Bouldering!

Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
David Sahalie wrote: Since you brought up the Stonedmasters, maybe they would have done harder things things if they weren't so concerned with grabbing each other's booty.
Largo posts over on Supertopo. Perhaps you should share your well informed sentiments with him and wait for his response.
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,793
DisturbingThePeace wrote:To all the draw stealing proponents, do you walk around stealing packs and approach shoes at trad areas? Do you think it's ok to snag gear at the base of a multi-pitch? If you find a cached drill or rope, do you steal that as well? Do you look for headlamps on routes at night, so you can run up to the base and steal their packs and shoes? It is sad to see the logic that some climber's use to justify theft.
No doubt. Some of the drivel coming out of the 'booty crowd' is just weak justification for being a selfish d-bag. Personally I hate fixed draws on sport routes. In fact, this past weekend I was at the area where I learned to climb many years ago. Back when I started climbing there, leaving routes fixed was not okay (and I still think its not). That said, if and when I start feeling strong enough about the situation to do something, I will simply remove the draws and leave them in a pile at the base of the route. There done, "ethical message" sent. I will never keep other climber's gear when they left it there and were fully intending on retrieving it later because that is stealing, plain and simple.

For all of you R-tards out there who have been climbing for less than a month, let me fill you in on some examples of what "booty" is traditionally applied to:
1) I put gear in that my second couldn't remove
2) I left nuts at a rap station when I bailed from a storm in the mountains
3) I got in over my head and I had to leave a biner to lower from
In all of these situations, someone comes along at a later date, inadvertently finds the gear, and removes it. In general there is no intention of seeking out the gear so that you can pad your rack, you simply happened upon the gear and cleaned it up. If you can't tell the difference between what I just described and climbing a sport route with the sole intention of "cleaning up" (i.e. stealing) the gear, then you are not only a d-bag, but a moron as well.

In the future, take this gentleman's advice:

CJC wrote:Classy thing to do would be to return the draws or not take them in the first place. We should try to be good to each other within reason, no? Carelessness is one thing, acts of nature are another. After a storm I'd expect a climber to return for their gear ASAP so grabbing it right away is pretty cold.
All of you pro-booties folks should spend more time thinking about the well-being and happiness of your fellow citizens and spend less time making weak ethical justifications for your own selfish behavior. And even after you spend a bunch of time reviewing your own actions, and you still think that you are righteous...remember even if you are right, your actions still might make you an @sshole.
Ben Sachs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2008 · Points: 680

It's sad to see the attitude of many "climbers". I assure you that James knows what is appropriate, and his views represent the majority opinion of real climbers. Unless they are dangerously worn or creating an access issue, anyone who takes down draws from a sport route is a complete tool and a thief. Everyone posting on the pro-booty side of this argument is giving away their status as total ass-clowns who don't really climb. PLEASE, learn how to climb before spewing on the internet. You may live to regret these posts once you get a clue.

csproul · · Davis, CA · Joined Dec 2009 · Points: 330

If you want to take an "ethical" stand about fixed draws, take the draws down, grow some balls, and take them to their owner to explain yourself. Even if you don't have the courage to give them back in person, leave them with a local shop. Leave them at the base of the route with a note explaining why you took them down. Post on MP about how cool you were to remove the draws and tell the offending route-equipers where to get their draws back. That is an ethical statement.

You can take the ethical stand that fixed draws are bad and that you will do something about it...but if you keep the draws, you are a thief. Period. Your moral/ethical argument just went out the window.

pfinnegan · · Boulder, CO · Joined May 2004 · Points: 65

Finally this thread starts trending in the right direction! I was feeling sickened.

Left my draws on a route yesterday whilst taking a piss. Half-expected they'd be booty'd after reading this nonsense.

Matt N · · Santa Barbara, CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 273

So is this another fixed draws thread?

I thought it was about bail gear?

Matt N · · Santa Barbara, CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 273

I left two 'biners on an anchor last summer that was supposed to have links and chains (per MP and topo). I want my gear back. It was a 5.11e route, so I deserve it back.

"JLP does not have any contributions that have been rated Great or Useful."

TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65
JLP wrote:Matt N: Trad: Leads 5.8 Sport: Leads 5.9 My first day of climbing ever - Jul 19, 2010 STFU noob.
What a solid representation of the sound reasoning that occurs on this website. I've climbed longer than you, therefore my opinion is superior. I climb harder, therefore you don't even deserve to have an opinion.

Not to get all semantic about it, but the real issue is how long must gear be abandoned for before it is fair game or "booty." In my mind it is obvious that gear must be abandoned for it to be booty, otherwise what's to stop you from cleaning a route that's up right in front of the original climber (other than the chance of getting your ass kicked?)

We would all agree that if you did a route frequently, i.e. soloing the 1st Flatiron, and saw a piece of gear on the route, every day for a year, this would be booty and thus acceptable to take as your own. We would all also agree that the draws on a climb with a climber standing below a route with his draws hung on it from previous attempts would not be considered booty. So where is the line?

If I'm the second party up a trad route and the follower from the first party yells that they got a piece stuck, and then I clean it and see them at the summit, is that booty? Better yet, are the buckets of gear stashed around the boulder field at Chasm Lake during alpine season "booty"? I think we would all agree it isn't. Is a pack that I left behind to move more quickly out of a dangerous situation booty?

While I understand the eyesore and waste arguments, so too does the government. There are laws, known as adverse possession whereby you become the owner of something simply by virtue of the fact someone else isn't using it. In most cases, it is between 15-30 years. Texas has one of the shortest ones (3 years) and here is a video about it that is worth watching regardless:

blog.foreclosure.com/2011/0…

We can argue about James's attitude and approach to this all day, but the fact is the person who took the draws took them when they were abandoned for a maximum of 12 hours following a storm at a highly popular sport crag. Knowing James, I don't understand why he left 6 up there instead of one (I'm sure he has a good reason) but I'm sure he regrets it in hindsight.

The finder's keepers losers weepers argument is BS and for some reason, it has a small following of climber's who steadfastly argue for its validity. These same people I suspect would not adhere to that line of thinking if they left their unlocked bike out front of coffee shop for 5 minutes and came back to it missing. Yet, this is essentially the same argument they make. To a certain extent they are right; don't expose your possessions to unnecessary risks. However, they miss the main point, which is that taking something that isn't yours makes you a terrible person. Also, just because the person you took it from didn't take the necessary precautions to stop you from stealing it, doesn't absolve you from blame. You don't become an "educator" teaching some a lesson, you become a thief.

P.S. James does climb hard and is well-liked in the climbing community but that doesn't mean he isn't still the biggest gumby I know.
J. Albers · · Colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 1,793
TheBirdman wrote: The finder's keepers losers weepers argument is BS and for some reason, it has a small following of climber's who steadfastly argue for its validity. These same people I suspect would not adhere to that line of thinking if they left their unlocked bike out front of coffee shop for 5 minutes and came back to it missing. Yet, this is essentially the same argument they make. To a certain extent they are right; don't expose your possessions to unnecessary risks. However, they miss the main point, which is that taking something that isn't yours makes you a terrible person. Also, just because the person you took it from didn't take the necessary precautions to stop you from stealing it, doesn't absolve you from blame. You don't become an "educator" teaching some a lesson, you become a thief.
Bingo.
germsauce Epstein · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2010 · Points: 55

golf clap Birdman.

I think you just ended this decades-old argument in its entirety. at least for the next 10 minutes.

TheBirdman Friedman · · Eldorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2010 · Points: 65
germsauce wrote:golf clap Birdman. I think you just ended this decades-old argument in its entirety. at least for the next 10 minutes.
It's a slow day at Lunatic Petroleum even by Lunatic Petroleum standards...

If that post doesn't work, at least we know we can bring everyone together with a sing along of the timeless classic, "Oftedal Serenade."
doug rouse · · Denver, CO. · Joined Apr 2008 · Points: 660

So..Is it bad to clip and use in-situ draws on a route..provided that they appear to be "ok"? I have always been stoked to find fixed draws on routes...especially if the route is at or near my limit...

Ian Stewart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2010 · Points: 155
doug rouse wrote:So..Is it bad to clip and use in-situ draws on a route..provided that they appear to be "ok"? I have always been stoked to find fixed draws on routes...especially if the route is at or near my limit...
Definitely not. Abandoned or permanent draws are always fair game to climb on. Just don't take them home with you.
Hank Caylor · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined Dec 2003 · Points: 615
Phil Lauffen wrote: The pro-booty crowd probably exaggerates how hard they really climb...
I fully do that!
T Roper · · Masshole · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 860

sahalie, can you drop some hard climbers names that you have met at the gym and various spurt crags as well? 5.13, 5.14.5.12D blah blah blah I've known plenty of "5.13" climbers that couldnt send an easy 5.9 crack without rehearsing it on tr 100 times. what studs, lets all bow to gym spurt climber ethics!

booty

booty

booty!!!!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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