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PAS Use?


Original Post
Gilles · · Arcata,CA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 60

So I got a PAS for xmas and I have been somewhat reluctant to use it. I usually make an anchor out of shoulder length slings and quickdraws. This is for Trad climbing by the way(which I am new to). So what I am wondering is, is it safe to do whatt this picture is showing?

metoliusclimbing.com/pas_pe…

I feel like if your leader took a factor 2 fall without placing his first piece yet, and the first attachment point ripped, wouldn't the ring attached to that first loop be useless? I know this PAS is rated to full strength, but a factor 2 fall straight onto the sling might seem like it could render the PAS useless and equal death in the way that the picture has it setup.

Benjamin Beckerich · · portland, oregon · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 325

Looks like he's still tied into the rope, and that the rope is hitched to the second bolt... so I'd say that if anything failed, they'd still be alive

For clarification... describe what you perceive to be happening in the picture, and we can tell you if it's safe. 'Cause I'm not really getting what you're saying, and not really sure exactly what's going on in the picture either. I don't see a belay anywhere, to know how he's anchored his belay

EDIT- OK, I see what you're saying. Yes, I suppose if the first ring ripped, you'd be fucked, unless you've got the rope hitched as a backup, like he's got it setup. But what's it rated for? If it's 22kN, like most web gear, it's not any more likely to blow than any other piece of 22kN rated webbing

Gilles · · Arcata,CA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 60

Oh ok, I see the rope now. So lets say the rope isn't tied in and he was using the PAS as an anchor. If you look at the climbers left quickdraw, that first loop of the PAS that is connected to that quickdraw, if that somehow failed, wouldn't the next PAS loop that's connected to the first tie in loop be worthless? I guess what I'm wondering is, would it be safer to equalize a sling and then use the PAS to connect to that sling?

Matt N · · Santa Barbara, CA · Joined Oct 2010 · Points: 302

Bottom line is that if you only use a PAS for your anchor connection you are relying on one connection. If you're worried about that, clove in with the rope on a separate piece.

Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 877

Im old tired and grumpy. so will b brief. Sell the pas to someone that doesnt climb. It is for retards. You can do everthing a pas can do with a clove hitch and the rope you already have with u. Plus. When u load dyneema dynamically it fails well below the rated strength. It should be called the pos. Piece of sh@#. Or wom. Waste of money.

Benjamin Beckerich · · portland, oregon · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 325
Gilles wrote:Oh ok, I see the rope now. So lets say the rope isn't tied in and he was using the PAS as an anchor. If you look at the climbers left quickdraw, that first loop of the PAS that is connected to that quickdraw, if that somehow failed, wouldn't the next PAS loop that's connected to the first tie in loop be worthless? I guess what I'm wondering is, would it be safer to equalize a sling and then use the PAS to connect to that sling?
For the brief period of time in my life when I used a PAS for rock climbing, I used a PAS to set anchor, then threw on a sling to double up. It was sort of a waste, so I dropped it. I'll still clip in with a sling for varying reasons sometimes, but you usually have enough rope to just hitch in. Nothing beats the rope.
Jim Reynolds · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2011 · Points: 75
Greg D wrote: When u load dyneema dynamically it fails well below the rated strength.
I thought that it has nothing to do with the fact that it fails below the rated strength. Instead, because dyneema does not stretch as much as nylon, it is much easy to reach 22kN when it is dynamically loaded.

Did that make sense?
JesseT · · Portland, OR · Joined May 2011 · Points: 110
Jim Reynolds wrote: I thought that it has nothing to do with the fact that it fails below the rated strength. Instead, because dyneema does not stretch as much as nylon, it is much easy to reach 22kN when it is dynamically loaded. Did that make sense?
Exactly!

dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/h…
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 286

Actually, the metolius slings and the blue water slings are a BLEND of nylon and dyneema. (edit: actually metolius may have upgraded to the pure skinny dyneema, not sure) They certainly arent the same as the DMM tests. Best to know the materials before saying that anything with dyneema will fail in a factor 2 fall.

People are so freaked out about dyneema these days. It is light, compact, awesome, and doesnt lose its strength in snow/ice/water like nylon.

Gilles · · Arcata,CA · Joined May 2009 · Points: 60

Thanks guys. Most of the time I climb with my girlfriend and am not swapping leads. I'll sell the thing when my climbing partner comes back from the peace corps. I guess its time I learn to use the rope, sounds easier than using slings to rig an anchor.

camhead · · Vandalia, Appalachia · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 1,240

Also, PAS's are most effective when they are put on IN the parking lot, girthed to your harness, and ALWAYS running between your legs.

You need to be this guy, even though he has not moved up to PAS use yet:

Phill T · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2008 · Points: 80

wow bunch of narrow minded elitists in here eh? Great tool for cleaning sport routes, great for staying safe when you arent swapping leads on multipitch or multiple raps. Great for clipping to hard to clean gear that you dont want to drop when you rip on it. very useful for makeshift aid.

Dont FF2 onto it, but I think those reports are exaggerated (they dont include the elasticity of the body or from the harness). Wouldnt be fun but I dont think it would explode. Its a tool good at a variety of jobs, not great at others. learn its uses and its weaknesses and go from there.

Dom · · New Brunswick Canada · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 1,110

This is what a lot of people use in France. 8.5mm dynamic rope tied with figures 8 at both end. It's dynamic so no fear of shock loading it and you don't have to go through the hassle of tying in with your rope if you're just cleaning a cragging route. Simple, cheap to make.

my personal anchor system

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,415
Phill T wrote:wow bunch of narrow minded elitists in here eh? Great tool for cleaning sport routes, great for staying safe when you arent swapping leads on multipitch or multiple raps. Great for clipping to hard to clean gear that you dont want to drop when you rip on it. very useful for makeshift aid. Dont FF2 onto it, but I think those reports are exaggerated (they dont include the elasticity of the body or from the harness). Wouldnt be fun but I dont think it would explode. Its a tool good at a variety of jobs, not great at others. learn its uses and its weaknesses and go from there.
You don't need to be so defensive, everyone here has been roped in by marketing hype and purchased retarded, overpriced, worthless junk at some time in their lives too. You just need to realize that this is what happened to you and move on. I know it will be difficult, but I believe in you!
dorseyec · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2009 · Points: 5
kennoyce wrote: You don't need to be so defensive, everyone here has been roped in by marketing hype and purchased retarded, overpriced, worthless junk at some time in their lives too. You just need to realize that this is what happened to you and move on. I know it will be difficult, but I believe in you!
I think I paid like $22 for the Metolious PAS like 3 years ago.... Not some huge financial burden when you look at everything else I have bought. I agree "just use the rope" on multi-pitch climbing. But for cleaning single pitch sport routes I find it a lot easier to use than two quickdraws. It was $20 and makes cleaning sport routes a little easier and safer. Whats the big deal with all you "use the rope" people and why are you so upset how I spent my $20?
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,415
dorseyec wrote: I think I paid like $22 for the Metolious PAS like 3 years ago.... Not some huge financial burden when you look at everything else I have bought. I agree "just use the rope" on multi-pitch climbing. But for cleaning single pitch sport routes I find it a lot easier to use than two quickdraws. It was $20 and makes cleaning sport routes a little easier and safer. Whats the big deal with all you "use the rope" people and why are you so upset how I spent my $20?
I'm not upset, and you're right that it's not that much money, I just think they're a funny piece of gear that is so specialized that it is pretty much worthless. Personally I use extendable slings for cleaning sport routes because I already have them and they can be used for so many different purposes. Quickdraws are just too short to work very well.
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 286

There is obviously something to be said for tying in with the rope.

But really, what do you guys do on rappel? Down multipitch routes? You WILL be tying in with something other than the rope. If you use a normal sling, you run the problem of it not being extended well in all situations, making shock-loading way more likely. In any case, I'm sure you guys are aware than a FF2 fall on anything is nasty as all get out, right?

Lastly, for those people that keep throwing out the DMM videos:
1. That is 8mm dyneema. That is a lot different than 12mm blue water nylon/dyneema blend.

2. Also, a single sling has a lot less give in it that multiple loops that are all sewn together.

3. Surely you guys are always clipped in with more than just a single PAS, right? Or single sling? Or single clove hitch from the rope? Does your reduncancy not get you over the .05% chance of a FF2 fall onto the anchors.

4. The DMM video shows that sling at full extension out, not a 6" of slack scenario that would be much more likely in this situation of "falling" on the anchors.

dorseyec · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2009 · Points: 5

I still don't bring the PAS on multipitch because as kennoyce said I already have a ton of slings on me. But for sport climbing I find it easier to use one PAS than two extendable slings, less clutter and easier to adjust.

I guess you can use one sling with an overhand knot and connect it to two bolts but at a hanging belay 100 feet above rocks I just prefer the PAS... and I'm sport cragging weight isn't exactly an issue.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 286
dorseyec wrote:I still don't bring the PAS on multipitch because as kennoyce said I already have a ton of slings on me. But for sport climbing I find it easier to use one PAS than two extendable slings, less clutter and easier to adjust. I guess you can use one sling with an overhand knot and connect it to two bolts but at a hanging belay 100 feet above rocks I just prefer the PAS... and I'm sport cragging weight isn't exactly an issue.
Kennoyce says that you already have slings, but this is a fallacy. You'd actually need a sling for each personal tether that you plan on using. You cant count them as slings in your rack, because you using them at the belay means your partner wont have them on the lead, which simply means you bring more slings. You don't magically get out of carrying an extra piece of gear.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,415
Spri wrote: Kennoyce says that you already have slings, but this is a fallacy. You'd actually need a sling for each personal tether that you plan on using. You cant count them as slings in your rack, because you using them at the belay means your partner wont have them on the lead, which simply means you bring more slings. You don't magically get out of carrying an extra piece of gear.
Wrong, You do have the slings on your rack. You anchor with the rope at belays, you only need the slings for setting up a rappel after your partner has arived at the anchor with all the gear. There is no need to take additional slings to anchor with.

I also just wanted to add that personally I hardly ever feel the need for adjustability in my anchors on sport routes. The few cases I can think of where I do want adjustability is when a route ends on a ledge and slings aren't long enough to anchor while standing on the ledge. In these cases I just extend the slings with another draw.
Greg D · · Here · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 877
JesseT wrote: Exactly! dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/h…
No. Not exactly. Read dmm's chart. Failures at 10, 11 & 12kn. On slings rated at 22.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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