Continue with onX Maps
Continue with Facebook
Devil's Head guidebook poaching
Follow topic:
Tzilla Rapdrilla wrote: This statement is patently false.Great. So now we can get down to the meat of things. I give you credit for addressing me directly and publicly. But what is it that I am saying is false? What part of it? I put forth 5 tenants. Are you saying that you never: A) Heard that Jason was going to write a new book for the Splatte. B) Talked about how to mutually benefit each other and made some agreements. C) Updated and republished your book some time after 2008 D) Broke your end of your agreements? E) expected that he'd keep his end of those agreements. Which is it, Tod??? Because I'm pretty sure you agree (point A) that you heard Jason was going to publish the book when he asked if you would help author it, if not some time prior to that. It was no secret when they took the cover to the trade show in November 2008... Which BTW is before you published your book which is (Point C). But I'd have guessed you might have even known before then... But admittedly, that's a guess... so I was only going to assert Nov 2008. So that leaves Points B, D and E. I guess B and D are really the same thing. Are you saying that you didn't agree to put a page in your book for Jason's upcoming book as part of the arrangements (point B, which even your own friends say you admit to)? Or are you then saying that you did in fact put that in there and somehow I just can't find that page? Which leaves us with point E. Which may or may not be false, but is immaterial. What do you think happens when people break their word on a business deal? And what do you thin happens when furthermore they verbally abuse and threaten to sue (without a case) the people that ask them why they did that? They loose their friends and their business deals Tod. You are a smart guy, you can figure it out. |
Tony B wrote: Ike OK, can I say that Jason didn't go back and do a few more routes after the DH book was out? Sure, he went back to lots of places and I'm sure DH is one of them. These are rhetorical questions that are intended to make you think critically about your presumptions and assertions. I don't expect you to answer them... since if you had the answers we wouldn't be having this conversation... which I am done with.First of all thank you for acknowledging I was right. Secondly, it doesn't seem like you're done with the conversation. Tod want's a true false type of question, and you're coming up with a multiple, multiple regression/choice question. {sheesh} Lastly, you're right I won't answer your rhetorical questions. |
Ike Rushmoore wrote: First of all thank you for acknowledging I was right. Secondly, it doesn't seem like you're done with the conversation. Tod want's a true false type of question, and you're coming up with a multiple, multiple regression/choice question. {sheesh} Lastly, you're right I won't answer your rhetorical questions.I gave Tod a 5-point true false. And I am noting that he didn't answer any of that. So obviously that's not what he wanted. I think he wants it to be nebulous inference and innuendo, which can be made worse than the real facts and truth without actually lying. Kind of like what you are doing. Which was exactly my point and exactly the opposite of saying you were right. But I would not expect you to understand that. It is exactly what I said when I continued on entertaining your own "5 months old" metaphor, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that either. Just like I said. That's the nice way of saying you are full of shit. And that's how my conversations go when I am done with them. |
|
Tod addressing you publicly is way more than we can say for Jason.... He wrote an article for Climbing Magazine that was a whale of a lie to promote his book and he hasn't publicly admitted that. I don't expect him to at this point but you can't refute the fact that at the time of publication of the Climbing article 1) Jason knew that there was a pre-existing guide to DH and omitted this. 2) Jason knew that Tod was the main developer at DH and he failed to include Tod's efforts in said climbing article when he included the efforts of others. DH represents a significant portion of Jason's book and the developers deserved credit at the very least. |
|
We have the DH book and it is great!!! Who wants to do that aptoach with the new SP book when a smaller choice exists........ Lol |
Mia Tucholke wrote:The more books the better..........in my book..... :-D. :-DBook 'em, Danno! I agree wholeheartedly. |
|
I have my moments of reason |
|
I've been going through Jason's book the last few nights and I have to say that it is a well made, quality product, which a lot of hard work went into. I am just a layman and I have NO dog in whatever this "fight" is. |
Bill Ballace wrote:Tod addressing you publicly is way more than we can say for Jason.... He wrote an article for Climbing Magazine that was a whale of a lie to promote his book and he hasn't publicly admitted that. I don't expect him to at this point but you can't refute the fact that at the time of publication of the Climbing article 1) Jason knew that there was a pre-existing guide to DH and omitted this. 2) Jason knew that Tod was the main developer at DH and he failed to include Tod's efforts in said climbing article when he included the efforts of others.Bill, this thread is very old and so I encourage you to re-read it to refresh your memory on the fact that I did address this issue publicly several times. But, nonetheless I will address your direct questions now. 1.) the article was "a whale of a lie" - what was inaccurate within the article? Was it the two paragraphs about Devil's Head or something else within the 10-page article that talked about the ENTIRE Platte region? In regards to Devil's Head, the first paragraph was about facts including routes that date back to the 1950s, which are documented in several books (see my list of references in my book, which includes all of Tod's books), so that can’t be false. It also says main development started in the 1990s and hasn't quit. Is this inaccurate? I didn’t climb there in the 90s but that’s what I’ve been told and read on the Internet and in Rock and Ice and in Tod’s book that published in the 90s. I guess the only piece that is somewhat inaccurate is that it says there are 400 routes here because it was under 350 at the time of the article. I’ll give you that one – sorry for rounding (or really, just including Radio Head, which Tod didn’t bolt any of as far as I know from talking to developers). Or was it that the majority are bolted, which is I guess based on what you consider the majority to be as about 35% of the routes are trad. But I thought by definition, majority just has to be 51%, so I guess that can't be the lie. The second paragraph is a personal account about my wife and me climbing there. Do you think this is a lie? If the lie is to promote my book, did it not do that (just like this thread is doing)? Please clarify. I think what you really are trying to get at is that Tod's name is not mentioned in the article. That is a separate issue, which I will provide some background information to. Several years ago I was friends with the current editor and chief of Climbing and together we decided it would be great to do an article on the Platte. The story was mostly about the adventure aspect of the heart of the inner Platte and was more about the feeling than referencing any specific area. Before the piece was published, that editor quit. For about a year, Climbing went through a great deal of change, including three more editors, each one with their own perspective of how the article should look. I kept rewriting it for their needs but the article kept getting backburnered - half because we were not done with the book and half because of the turn over going on at Climbing. When the current editor took over, he asked Devil's Head be included in the article (this was the first time this was asked). We went through several rounds of edits and rewrites and even deletions of whole sections (whole pages of text) and the article that you see is what was obviously published. In the first rewritten draft that included text on Devil's Head, Tod and about 8 other people were mentioned. It was cut by one of the editors there (not Dougald), perhaps because of space, but most likely, simply because it did not flow with how the text was written. I could have fought more for it to be put back in, but honestly, Tod had said and done some not very nice things towards me, so I felt like I had at least put in an effort and had no reason to go out of my way to help him further. Regardless, Dougald McDonald publicly apologized for Climbing's oversight in omitting Tod's name from the article on the first page of this thread. His name and book were included on the online version of the article. climbing.com/exclusive/feat… which I think is very nice of Climbing to do. Dougald also sent an email to Tod, as did I, apologizing to him for not including his name in the text. He accepted both apologies. I still have the email, do I really need to share it? I can't help it if Tod does not want to inform his minions about how things really happened. Now the issue of mentioning Tod's guidebook. Yes I knew Tod's book was out but I did not mention it or any other guidebook aside from my own for a few reasons. 1.) Tod's book is to a small area of the Platte, not the whole Platte, which the article was about. This is both true for the number of routes (about 350 out of over 3,000 routes) and geographically (Devil's Head is under 4 square miles while the whole Platte is over 600). 2.) I wrote the article, so why wouldn't I promote my own book? Seems a little ridiculous not to. This has been done in countless other articles since climbing magazines started, why do you only take issue with me? Additionally, no article has the room to mention every book source available, why should mine have been any different? And if I mentioned Tod's, do I have to mention Stewart Green's? It includes quite a bit about the Platte, or what about my true source of information - Hubbel's book? It's out of print but maybe he'd be hurt if I didn't include it. Don't forget Trout or Rolofson or Chenney's and the list goes on. While yes Tod's is current, it again is in reference to 2 paragraphs in a 10 page article and I see nothing wrong with promoting our book, we put a lot of effort into writing it and I am proud of how it turned out. 3.) According to Dougald, Dougald had already approached Tod to do an article on Devil's Head in which Tod could have promoted the hell out of his own book (I would think it ridiculous if he didn't) but Tod never got around to it. With all that combined, why is it my responsibility to promote Tod's book? I encourage everyone on here to write an article for a magazine, any magazine, to get insight into the process. Where you start with an idea for an article is far from where you end up. There are a lot of minds involved to make your piece of writing as good as it possibly can get and they all have different ideas on how that looks. There's a lot of give and take and unfortunately some pieces get lost in the shuffle. So while Tod already accepted my apology (which is really the only person I care does), I apologize here publicly to the whole "DH Crew" as you call yourselves for not mentioning your leader and thus perceivably slighting all of you in turn. I will say this though, when my book came out and there was a review on it, I 1.) kept a reference to Tod's book in a review about my own book. No credit for that from you guys though huh? Don't think that would have been reciprocated had it been Tod's book being reviewed, would it?. 2.) One of the first posts was from Derek Lawrence and Mike Lane (Delta Bravo) promoting Tod's book. I laughed it off and moved on even when Derek sent me an email saying "you could say I was stirring the shit when I posted a link to Tod's book on the review". Classy guys, real classy. I post a simple, factual comment about our new book being available, which has no insinuation about it or any other book's quality and you guys go ape shit. Sleeping dog my ass. To address Chris Cavalerro - you keep asking me to answer you directly and I thought I did in this thread, but maybe I don't know what your question is. You recently asked if it was "mission critical" to include Devil's Head in the Platte book. It was. I wish it wasn't, but it was. I addressed this before, but I'll reiterate. Sorry to upset you but here's the thing: look back at the beginning of this thread and you'll see a map I posted to the northern part of Rampart Range Road. You drive down the road and reach some formations with established climbs on them. Then you drive a little further and you reach Devil's Head. And then you drive a little further still and you reach some more formations with established climbs on them, actually encircling Devil’s Head. We wanted to do the Platte justice and felt the only way to do that was by doing a comprehensive guidebook. It's hard to rationalize including some areas, then telling people to not look out their window because those rocks aren't in our book, then include some more areas surrounding that "blind spot". This is even harder to ignore when you not only share the same road but the same camping, bathroom facilities, etc. I had asked Tod to join us with this project years before he wrote his book. His response was rather harsh and said he wanted at least $10,000 for all the hardware he put in. I said he'd get his fair author's cut and we could also put in an ad asking for donations for new bolts for Devil's Head, which the money could go to him. He said it wasn't enough money. Still think he's so selfless? The initial response from Tod was only about monetary compensation. Anyway, he didn't join the team and that's fine. It’s actually better because his information is not up to my standards (see below for more on that). The point is that I was upfront from the beginning about our intentions because I regarded Tod as a friend, or at least a friendly acquaintance. This kind gesture was extended when we met in Golden at Woody's to talk about our respective books and how to help each other. Now Tod and I have exchanged emails privately since the Platte article was written (again it was a Platte article - not a Devil's Head article in case you were confused) and we disagree to some degree about what we talked about that day, as admittedly nothing was formal as it was a conversation among friends (or at least friendly acquaintances). However, Tod admitted that he was suppose to reference our book, which he did not do so. I still have the emails, including where he admits guilt and says he can rectify that by putting a sticker into the remaining books. So, Tod, it goes back to Tony's post. Why would I uphold anything I said I would when you clearly admit to not upholding what you would? This was suppose to be friendly - not business, not contractual, but a way to benefit each other. There was no obligation for either party to do anything and clearly, you didn't do anything. But here's the thing Tod - YOU WENT FIRST. I appreciate you holding me to a higher moral code than yourself, but you burned that bridge when you burned me (the first time, not the repeated attempts thereafter). The other things we talked about are irrelevant really. It doesn't matter if you said you’d do A,B,C.....F,G. If you don’t do A, then the whole thing falls apart. I personally feel Tod never had any intention of upholding his end, partly because he built in a "fake" route into his book to try and catch us plagiarizing him. This is unfortunate because we climbed every single route at Devil's Head mentioned in our book (before finding out about this bonehead move (and almost 1,500 of the nearly 1,600 routes in the book - the ones we didn't were basically all on closed private property)) and the only people that this hurts are the people using Tod's book, which wander aimlessly through the woods looking for a route that doesn't exist. If you've ever used a Fixed Pin book before, you know our authors do their research - we don't put out shitty books and we sure as shit don't plagiarize. We do however build in some ways to make sure we don't get plagiarized (we do this with all our books) but we would never do it in a manner that hurts the user of our book. We're smarter than that. I was polite and perhaps too subtle in my last reference about how our books are different. Doing a quick thumb-through (meaning I may have missed a few) Tod's bolt counts are wrong on 96 of the 303 sport routes in his book. Now that's not a majority as has been insinuated (that's only 31%), but even his own Crew admits this is a problem. To me it's pretty egregious, especially when this does not factor in the trad routes, which also have errors. So in regards to the comments about an error on almost every page, I'm inclined to agree. Try climbing "Three Way Cracks" as Tod shows it on p187 of his book and you may have a hard time getting off the ground. There's more examples like this. In this example however, Scott Sills got the FA and asked to proof the book but wasn't given the opportunity. Seems like a simple fix if you’re not able to actually climb the route yourself. Yes Tod did a lot of FAs there, but a guidebook is about the information and his is wrong. He clearly didn't climb the route. We did. I have a lot of FAs in the Platte, which is what our book is about, but you don't see me saying that makes me the only person that can write about the area. Someone will eventually redo our book, just like someone redid every other guidebook to areas from Yosemite to Thailand. They may have less FAs then me, but who gives a shit. I have less than Hubble. Did he care? No. He gave me stacks and stacks of 3-ring binders with new info and proofed the book for us. But this is getting away from the issues I believe as no one has tried to say our information is inaccurate and even members of the DH crew agree Tod's information is less than perfect to put it kindly. I'm not saying Tod didn't climb the routes - I think he climbed most of the sport routes (and probably very very few of the trad routes). What I think happened is that Tod climbed them years ago, never wrote down a bolt count (neither of his earlier books include bolt counts) and then tried to count them from the ground for this edition. I think it's sloppy, but that's just my opinion. All of you DH crew guys will have a different one that refutes mine. I mention Tod and all his books in our book, that's as good as it's going to get. Which is pretty gracious in my opinion for three reasons: 1.) Tod said he'd mention ours and didn't (established above) 2.) Long before our guidebook came out, Tod approached a lawyer and asked him to sue me. The lawyer said Tod had no case and Tod asked to file a suit anyway just to harass me. The lawyer said that was unethical and said no. 3.) Then Tod decided he would create a website with all the routes at Table Mountain on it so that I wouldn't be able to sell anymore guidebooks to that area. While the website never came out, please see the new photos Tod has posted for further reference mountainproject.com/v/10762…. I have no issue with it, post away Tod, I use mtnproject for beta as does everyone else posting in this thread. It's a great resource and one that I think compliments our books (yours and mine), not detracts from it. Anyway, Tod's intentions were called out publicly by Dave J, which the DH Crew did not like, and the comments were all deleted by an Administrator. Yet this thread lives on. Why? Well after Tod’s bad press got deleted, I asked one of the head honchos here to delete this thread. One of the reasons he said no is because from a nonbiased, nonpartisan view, my "detractors actually look like the assholes here". Reflect on that for a second. Are you helping or hurting your own cause? I have stayed away from this thread because I have thick enough skin to brush you clowns off and have not wanted to try and drag other people's names through the mud, namely Tod's. As I have publicly posted before (including in the forum thread reviewing my own book), Tod has been a great steward to the community and he deserves credit for that. I will say I too have done a few things for the community and this is more FYI than tooting my own horn. I know you idiots will ignore these facts because it does not help make your case and was already in part stated by other posters/users before. I am on the board of directors for the Flatirons Climbing Council as well as their subcommittee for Fixed Hardware and also sit on the board for the Boulder Climbing Community. I started the Denver Climber's Coalition. I have organized at least one official trail day a year since I moved here for various areas all across the Front Range. Oftentimes more than one. I have replaced well over 100 bolts in the Front Range despite the fact that I have only bolted a single new sport route here. I have established sport routes back east but that's not really my style - I'm more of a trad guy. I have replaced over 45 pounds of tat out of the Platte - believe me that's a lot. I know you guys love to bolt cracks and grid-bolt faces so trad climbers are a step below you sport climbers in the climbing hierarchy, so the next few stats are meaningless, but it does however establish I'm not new to the scene. I have established over 300 FAs in the Front Range, nearly 600 total, and done so on four continents, from short sport routes to massive alpine faces. Every book we publish has a clause written into the author's contract where part of the money goes to the local coalition for which the book is about. If there is no coalition, the money goes to the Access Fund. It's a business, so yeah, we keep some money. Not a lot, but some. I like to have a house and a car and food. So does Tod and all you DH crew; that's why you all have jobs. Ben and I are the land stewards for the Access Fund at Table Mountain, which the AF owns. This means we go out there and clean up things and do work outside of a trail day. The money from our Table book helps pay for that trash removal and that bathroom. Tod says "all proceeds" blah blah blah. He publicly admits the money goes to buying more bolts for new routes. That's not as selfless as you guys make it sound. It means he's taking the money and then deciding to use it in a personal manner because he enjoys bolting, not because new routes "have to be done" or anything. New routes is not the same as repairing old ones. And about how many routes he bolted, I have asked around, the number he's bolted is a lot lower than you guys want to let on. "It's a fact". Give it a rest. Read Richard Wright’s essay in our book – he was an original developer and even he said Tod didn’t bolt nearly as many routes as you guys try and fabricate. He has done a lot sure, but the real fact is that I don't need his permission to climb there, to document a route whether it's on mtnproject or in a book I choose to write. I'm sorry to have pissed in your pond, but your pond flows into the ocean that is the Platte, which greatly needed a new guidebook. I apologize for the tone I'm starting to take while writing this, but honestly, I'm growing tired of this. I don't have time to respond to every asinine posts you guys put up, especially since you guys are now creating trolls and usernames like Delta Bravo instead of your actual name. I can't wait to see your reaction when my new Castlewood Canyon guidebook comes out (that's a joke, lighten up). Oh and Chris, Dave J is not "on FP's team". We have no team. That's cool you guys do, but I don't like cliques or crews or secret hand shakes. I'm glad he backs us, but again, no team, as teams are exclusionary by nature - not everyone can play on the school's basketball team. I'm more than willing to have a beer with any DH Crew member to talk about this in person. The internet, anonymity, and trolls all create a hostile tone/environment. I think all of you would view me in a different light if we spoke in person. I've offered this to several of the more vocal DH guys and they all turned me down. They'd rather bitch on the Internet. Makes sense to me though - think of this analogy - if a small child wants a candy bar, they just kick and scream and cry in the isle so everyone can hear them and hopefully mommy gives them the candy bar. They do not have the capacity to have a rational conversation with the parent about whether or not it'll ruin dinner or if maybe they could save the candy bar for desert, etc. etc. Does that answer all your questions? This thread is going in a circle. It was established back in September there was no plagiarism so then you guys started whining about something else. As that proved false, you whined about something else. Etc etc. When the troll resurrected this thread, it was about the book. As Tony clearly pointed out Tod is full of shit when he makes himself out to be the martyr. So what did you guys do? Go after the article. People are fascinating creatures aren't they? I think I'll repost some of these facts on the DH page so more people get the whole picture instead of the skewed one Tod is trying to mastermind. Sorry Tod, I gotta call you out at this point. I'm well aware that aside from all the other dirty, slimy shit you pulled that was mentioned above, you also choreographed this thread at the annual "Sympathy for the Devil" camping trip - telling people to post this and other people to post that. Guys came back from that weekend disgusted and ratted you out. Fitting name isn't it? You're the Devil, right? And you want sympathy, right? The truth can be an ugly bitch Tod, but we all shoulda saw it coming because the "Devil Made [You] Do it" not once, but again. Buy my book, don't buy my book. Buy Tod's, don't buy Tod's. Use mountainproject, whatever, just try rock climbing rather than typing for awhile. And hey Bill this one's for you - happy climbing! |
|
A) This topic has been beat to death. |
|
It's clear based on the foregoing diatribe that there are two parties here who are in significant disagreement to say the least. It is also very unlikely that they will ever come to any mutually agreeable resolution. There are numerous misstatements in various posts and going back and forth about who said what several years ago that will lead to this going nowhere but further in circles. I will only cite one item listed incorrectly above, I did not say that I needed at least $10,000 as fair compensation for hardware installed to be part of any prospective guidebook project. There are other incorrect items too, but I doubt that the MP community is really interested in all of it at this point. I suppose some creative writer could turn this into some kind of TV show like drama for the magazines, that would sure be a different than the usual we climbed this really gnarly route sort of article. |
Mia Tucholke wrote:We have the DH book and it is great!!! Who wants to do that aptoach with the new SP book when a smaller choice exists........ Lol Also bought Jason's book and it seems excellent as well, but will most likely use it for other area. The more books the better..........in my book..... :-D. :-DYep I got both and am happy about it. :o) |
Jason Haas wrote: Doing a quick thumb-through (meaning I may have missed a few) Tod's bolt counts are wrong on 96 of the 303 sport routes in his book. Now that's not a majority as has been insinuated (that's only 31%), but even his own Crew admits this is a problem. To me it's pretty egregious, especially when this does not factor in the trad routes, which also have errors. So in regards to the comments about an error on almost every page, I'm inclined to agree. Try climbing "Three Way Cracks" as Tod shows it on p187 of his book and you may have a hard time getting off the ground. There's more examples like this. In this example however, Scott Sills got the FA and asked to proof the book but wasn't given the opportunity. Seems like a simple fix if you’re not able to actually climb the route yourself. Yes Tod did a lot of FAs there, but a guidebook is about the information and his is wrong.But this is kinda a drag to read. At least I have two books to get the beta. |
|
damn, i learned something today. no wonder, at every area i have ever climbed there has been 1 route that i could not find, come hell or high water.... it's the 'gotcha!' route. |
|
Speaking of guidebooks with errors in them, I am a little less than pumped to hear that Bob's redoing his Bocan book again after only 3 years. I know there's always new routes going up, but it's my understanding it's to fix errors? |
Scott McMahon wrote:Speaking of guidebooks with errors in them, I am a little less than pumped to hear that Bob's redoing his Bocan book again after only 3 years. I know there's always new routes going up, but it's my understanding it's to fix errors? Not sure if I'm correct on that topic, but maybe we can get meat labels on guidebooks. 80% error free, 90% error free. LOL That being said I am aware how these books take years of research and dedication. Thanks Jason for taking the time to climb everthing and try to make it as accurate as possible.try to make one 100% error free |
Darren Mabe wrote: try to make one 100% error freehaha I guess that's a snipe hunt. Well I guess I'll settle for a book without a fictitous route in it. |
|
Jason Haas said of the exclusion of Tod's name from the article: |
Locker wrote:When is the new Castlewood Canyon Guidebook coming out? Will it be in full color? LOL!It's a project with your name on it, Locker. Get to doing those topos. Also, Tom Hanson can give you some snake handling tips. He was going to be one of those crazy Baptist snake preachers at one time. |
Scott McMahon wrote:Speaking of guidebooks with errors in them, I am a little less than pumped to hear that Bob's redoing his Bocan book again after only 3 years. I know there's always new routes going up, but it's my understanding it's to fix errors? Not sure if I'm correct on that topic...Maybe the old one was out of print... Regardless, let's hope he corrects the errors, adds new development and rewrites it as a 'complete' instead of 'select' one. If all of that happens, I might buy one. I know others who feel the same way. |
