Lowering vs rappelling

biner friction that dissipates into the rope

Yeah, but isn't that down at the belayer? The anchor should still feel twice the load of the person lowered...

MattB wrote:Yeah, but isn't that down at the belayer? The anchor should still feel twice the load of the person lowered...

I'm not sure I'm following your logic. They are different types of metal in different sizes. Why does it have to be twice the force?

Ah, right, our old friend friction! 1 to 1.6? yeah seems reasonable that a 120# belayer could lower a 200# leader, but there's usually a bit of herky jerky as well

Another reason this argument is retarded is that nobody really knows which descent method causes more wear. There is no data, just a bunch of speculation by armchair engineers using flimsy arguments.

I do believe that rapping is more dangerous, and an alarming number of cragging accidents start out with "So-and-so thought so-and-so was going to rap...."

My partners never think I'm going to rap, and they never take me off belay until I'm on the ground.

Two to one loads are theoretical, even with pulleys. The strand from the climber to the anchor is 1 to 1 the strand from the belayer to the anchor is something less than 1 to 1. Add them to get your load on the anchor.

Airplanes perform millions of flights a year at safety margins of 1.5 to 1. A well-placed bolt will hold what, four, five or six thousand pounds? If climbers weigh 200 lbs, we are operating in safety margins of at least 15+ to 1 on a single, well-placed bolt in a lowering scenario. If you are lowering off a well placed #1 brass nut you are in the realm of the aviation safety margin of 1.5 to 1. Rapping will improve the margin to 2 to 1 (400 to 200). A single, well-placed cam will hold 2000 lbs or roughly a 6 to 1 safety margin. So, go ahead and lower... so long as you are not wearing out a bolt hanger. Better yet, put another piece in and then lower.

The weight of the belayer does not matter - if he or she counters the weight of the climber who is hanging, the load on the anchor is the same - something like 1.6 to 1. Otherwise, the belayer rises, right? Another way to think of this is, what if you anchored to the earth (how much does that weigh?) or a million pound boulder. Would that affect the load on the anchor? No, it is still about 1.6 to 1.

You guys are assuming no acceleration. What if the belayer lowers the climber really fast, then halts them quickly?

Rap

Bryan Ferguson wrote: Airplanes perform millions of flights a year at safety margins of 1.5 to 1.

Could you explain to me what a safety margin of 1.5 to 1 is regarding airplanes?

Phil Lauffen wrote:You guys are assuming no acceleration. What if the belayer lowers the climber really fast, then halts them quickly?

That's just asking for trouble!

Lee Smith wrote: Could you explain to me what a safety margin of 1.5 to 1 is regarding airplanes?

A safety factor is a number that describes how much something is over-designed. If you design something to hold 150 lbs., but the maximum load it will ever see is 100 lbs., the safety factor is 1.5 (safety factor = design load/actual load). To do a real analysis on the forces placed on climbing gear, you would need to know all of the angles of the rope, the weight of both climbers, the distance of each fall, etc. It is possible to figure it all out, but I think you can use common sense to evaluate the strength of the equipment, without ever making a quantitative calculation.

Have you ever heard of a bolt, which was in good condition, failing? No. Climbing mistakes are almost always a result of some sort of user error. The gear is designed to be bomber.

Mike Anderson wrote:Another reason this argument is retarded is that nobody really knows which descent method causes more wear. There is no data, just a bunch of speculation by armchair engineers using flimsy arguments. I do believe that rapping is more dangerous, and an alarming number of cragging accidents start out with "So-and-so thought so-and-so was going to rap...." My partners never think I'm going to rap, and they never take me off belay until I'm on the ground.

But from the climber's perspective, isn't it safer to assume you'll be rapping? And from the belayer's perspective assume they'll be lowering...

On my routes, unless there is some reason it will hurt your rope, I set the anchors up for the last person to thread and lower. That is why I put those nice beefy 1/2" quicklinks on them. They can take a lot of wear and are relatively cheap and easy to switch out with new ones when need be. Obviously, if you are not the last person, you lower off your own draws. With proper communication I think it is safer and faster. A belayer should never take a person off unless the climber has made it absolutely clear that they want to be taken off.

I think this is more the norm now with big beefy sport anchors. With some sketch anchor, such as aluminum rap rings that aren't designed to handle lowering, you rap. If you can't trust your belayer to not take you off belay, or lower you properly, you shouldn't be climbing with them.

There should be no assuming. Communication should be very clear and confirmed. I have a friend who almost died when the girl who was belaying him took him off belay when he reached the second pitch anchor, assuming he was going to rap. When he leaned back and fell, the only thing that saved him was that the rope somehow formed a knot in it's self that caught on a carabiner. He ended up down at the level of the first belay. A little more and he would have splatted on a ledge. I can't believe somebody would be such a dumb ass as to have taken him off without asking first and hearing a clear confirmation.

M Sprague wrote: I can't believe somebody would be such a dumb ass as to have taken him off without asking first and hearing a clear confirmation.

Really, I can't believe somebody would just let go of an anchor without making sure they are on belay. As has been pointed out above you can always hang on to the other side of the rope until you feel that the other person has you. To blindly just let go with out testing and double checking that your on, I just can't fathom that.

That was a mistake on his part, but really, once his belayer said "On belay" he should be able to fall or jump off at any moment, without having to wonder if he will be caught. "On belay" is a promise to pay attention and protect the climber's ass to the best of your ability. In practice, I would double check and warn the belayer.

Have you ever heard of a bolt, which was in good condition, failing?

I trust my gear more than bolts. But I can't just rap off it I guess.

Steve

mcarizona wrote: Have you ever heard of a bolt, which was in good condition, failing? I trust my gear more than bolts. But I can't just rap off it I guess. Steve

There have been plenty of instances where the climber thought the bolt was in good condition, and it wasn't...

Mike Anderson wrote:Another reason this argument is retarded is that nobody really knows which descent method causes more wear. There is no data, just a bunch of speculation by armchair engineers using flimsy arguments. I do believe that rapping is more dangerous, and an alarming number of cragging accidents start out with "So-and-so thought so-and-so was going to rap...." My partners never think I'm going to rap, and they never take me off belay until I'm on the ground.

i don't really agree that rapping is more dangerous. with lowering, you have twice as many people who can fuck up. judging by the numbers of related accidents that i have read about in the last 10 years, i'm pretty sure that lowering accidents are happening a lot more often than rapping accidents these days.

i generally rap whenever possible/realistic. this allows my partner to get their shit together, get a drink, rack up, take a leak, etc. also, it puts my safety back in my own hands. the exception to this is really overhanging or really traversing routes.

Just lower and be done with it. I HATE waiting while some idiot takes 25 minutes to set up a rappel when they could be lowered in 1 minute.

M Sprague wrote:That was a mistake on his part, but really, once his belayer said "On belay" he should be able to fall or jump off at any moment, without having to wonder if he will be caught. "On belay" is a promise to pay attention and protect the climber's ass to the best of your ability. In practice, I would double check and warn the belayer.

Yes I completely agree with what you are saying, I think that what happens is that once the climber reaches the anchor belayers relax. In some cases the climbers may even inadvertently say off belay. Rather what they mean is that they are momentarily safe but will expect to be lowered momentarily. Then when the time comes to lower they fail to ask "got me?" and don't wait for the gotcha reply. That sounds exactly like what happened here mountainproject.com/v/near-… Even the lowly top roper should know to ask "got me?" before leaning back at the top of a climb.