Is belaying a leader without gloves an accident waiting to happen?

I wear gloves to keep my hands clean. I like them for lowering and long rappels. Never used them for safety reasons. I have caught literally 1000's of falls in the last 35 years. Hip belays, Sticht Plates, Chain link, Figure eight, tubers, atc, I have never burned my hand or fingers. Not sure if any were factor 2. These days I use a gri gri or cinch and usually give a little hop when catching a fall. Haven't read the info Perin speaks of but it sounds like it is one more reason to use a Cinch or Gri Gri or Eddy. Use an appropriate device for the rope diameter and good belaying technique. In the end use what you are most comfortable with, gloves or no gloves.

Tony B wrote: Mark Nelson is gonna kick his ass too. Jim Ebert knows better than to imitate Mark.

Jim Ebert being his senior, deserves a bow of respect from Mark Nelson. Haven't you read his 114 pg resume?

Kevin Stricker wrote: Also any time I have gotten a rope burn I did not know it until after the fact. I find it hard to believe someone would let go of the rope because of it, but what do I know.

More than knot, it's just a superficial burn; we've all had those without much if any concern.

I've seen it worse a couple ways to people, once you get into the dermis the rope is reactively let go like a hot pan on the stove, or the belayer's adrenal kicks up because their partner's life is on the line and burns will go full thickness; the rope is going to win over tissue.

In any case, the treatment for a burn, debridement, sucks; nobody wants to go through this. Gloves aren't a guarantee to preventing injury, but they can help.

The message I can only try to relay is to be aware this isn't an issue of using or not using a good belay technique; the typical belay device can only hold so much.

Woodchuck ATC wrote: Jim Ebert being his senior, deserves a bow of respect from Mark Nelson. Haven't you read his 114 pg resume?

Mark Nelson is actually his Senior.
A) He simply does not age.
b) He needs no resume.

(if this is confusing, check out the other thread)

JohnL writes: "'I should hope so, that is completely standard.

The discussion is more about hard falls, crashing the belay, or bashing the belayer.'"

Well bully for you. But for me that is not "standard". Not that I'm not pushing myself. But I usually solo, and falling is a Very rare occasion. I climb with a "no falls, ethos", again, I'll repeat myself, I do push my limits even when soloing...

And if you read all the posts, they run the gambit from hard to not so hard falls.

Juan

I have caught many lead falls all without gloves and had no problem. I guess it depend on how much friction is created with your belay device. If you using a grigri chances are gloves aren't needed.

Tony B wrote:...Hope that helps. Lessons? Maybe so: always slingshot the belay, always be ready.

Thanks, Tony, that's really great info. I agree that a good lesson to learn from your experiences is to have the rope through a piece (any piece) above you. It lowers the fall factor, and certainly getting pulled upward introduces a dynamic aspect to the belay that isn't going to be there if you catch the fall hanging from the belay anchor (but I'll bet being tied in with the rope helps there).

It appears that the falls which you caught, although likely very high fall factors, were significantly less severe than the worst case scenarios that the Germans were testing. Basically, they did relatively low factor drop tests (0.4) directly onto a completely static belay using a "simulated hand" that applied a braking force to the rope based on empirically-measured forces that humans are able to apply.

No device other than a GriGri was able to stop the fall without significant slippage (even the GriGri slipped 8cm; the tube devices all slipped a meter or more at the low end of the force range humans can apply). Interesting enough, a munter belay proved better than all devices other than the GriGri.

Actually, I'm a bit surprised that they found so much slippage at such a low fall factor, particularly in light of your experiences.

If you can read German, two reports are found here and here.

In addition, Jim Titt has reported some interesting testing results (in English) here (search for "belay device" on the page as there is no link to the section on belay devices).

Edit: removed the reference to the Italians, since I can't find the test results online anymore, and can't remember exactly what their tests entailed.

Perin Blanchard wrote: It appears the the falls you caught, although likely very high fall factors, were significantly less severe than the worst case scenarios that the Germans were testing. Basically, they did relatively low factor drop tests (0.4) directly onto a completely static belay using a "simulated hand" that applied a braking force to the rope based on empirically-measured forces that humans are able to apply.

One other thing to think about too... Belaying directly off the anchor, OR of the harness without a "slingshot" means that in a factor 2 fall, the rope is going to switch directions on you. If you lock off by pulling down, and then the device POINTS DOWN, well, how locked off are you? For 20 years I've been of the rather emphatic religion that says I don't want to have to pull UPWARD on a rope to lock off a lead fall. Thusly, I use the slingshot belay system I described.

I've pretty much said what I think needs to be said on the subject, but I'll add this one additional bit of information to think about.

Various studies (see, for example, references in Jim Tit's superb article linked above) make it clear that even the strongest grippers (and here we are speaking of absolute strength, not strength-to-weight ratio) using medium-diameter ropes will probably not be able to hold, without slippage, more than about 2.5 kN (about 560 lbf) peak impact load with an ATC-type device.

Anyone who doubts this might want to try a single-strand rappel with three additional climbers also hanging from the device. (Please only try this right off the ground!) Given the amount of times we hear about needing a second biner to make controllable an ordinary double-strand rappel for a single climber, it isn't hard to guess the outcome of such an experiment.

The testimony of various posters refers to thousands of falls held without slippage certainly illustrates how often system friction limits the load experienced by the belayer. But there is also absolutely no question about the potential for higher loads in real field situations---2.5 kN is well below what is possible.

A few people will experience such loads (as I have). I think that those who do will be far better off if gloved.

So here is the thing I am thinking about: In a factor 2 fall you might have up to a meter of rope slippage, but three feet of rope running through your hand is not going to cause some terrible rope burn that would cause you to drop someone.

I think most rope burn/dropped climbers are not from these falls at all. They are from people giving poor belays who are not prepared to catch you. My first big fall was at best a 0.5 factor fall, but I still fell about 40 feet because my belayer was not not experienced. When I came to a stop a few feet off the ground I looked over at him and saw that the only thing that kept me from decking was his pinky stuck in his tuber belay device. Luckily he was uninjured, but I am pretty sure that if he had been wearing gloves I would have decked.

Gloves do not make you a safer belayer. I think it is better to know you could get hurt if you screw up than to rely on some leather to make things safe. If you are uncertain of your ability to control a fall then you had better get a device that will ensure it.

Kevin Stricker wrote:So here is the thing I am thinking about: In a factor 2 fall you might have up to a meter of rope slippage, but three feet of rope running through your hand is not going to cause some terrible rope burn that would cause you to drop someone.

The reason you have "only" a meter or less of slippage in such a fall is because you are gripping the rope as hard as you can as the rope is slipping through the belay device.

Assuming your brake hand isn't right next to the belay device when the fall starts (e.g., it's by your hip), your hand is going to move with the rope toward the belay device. If your brake hand reaches the belay device before the rope stops slipping through the belay device, the rope is going to start slipping through your hand. If you don't let go you will almost certainly be burned in that case.

As I understand it, you probably won't let go, because you won't feel any pain until after the event is over. Your hand(s), however, might be permanently damaged.

(I've twice stupidly grabbed the belayer side of the rope at the start of falls that started at the level of or slightly below the last protection and have gotten skin glazing from a split second of contact with probably no more than a couple of inches of slippage.)

Kevin Stricker wrote:Gloves do not make you a safer belayer.

I agree. Gloves might, however, allow you to remain uninjured in an unlikely worst case scenario. Plus your hands don't get all black.

Kevin Stricker wrote: Gloves do not make you a safer belayer. I think it is better to know you could get hurt if you screw up than to rely on some leather to make things safe.

This seems to misunderstand the issues. For example, consider

Analogy wrote: Ropes do not make you a better climber. I think it is better to know you could get hurt if you screw up than to rely on some nylon to make things safe.

The issue here is not unsafe belaying. It is whether or not to prepare for falls that a safe belayer cannot control without slippage. No tubular device currently on the market can control high-energy factor-1 falls, much less factor-2 falls, without the rope slipping. It has nothing to do with the skill of the belayer. The device manufacturers specifically advertise this unavoidable slippage in high-energy situations as an important ``safety valve'' for keeping maximum impacts lower.

It seems to me that there is some double-think going on. People eschew the use of Gri-Gri's for trad climbing because of the higher anchor loads associated with more static belays, preferring instead tubular devices that keep impacts lower by allowing the rope to slip. They choose these devices because they allow rope slippage and then argue that the rope will never slip. Something, if you will pardon the expression, has got to give here.

rgold, it seems like you are only speaking of 'slippage' as occurring between the rope and the hand, as opposed to between the rope and the device. i have caught quite a few falls that were on the borderline of brutal and have NEVER had the rope slip through my bare hand. there was some movement of the rope through the device.

i was forced to belay with a glove the last 4 days, due to a monster flapper on the palm of my hand (can't wait to hear the peanut gallery comments on my injury...). i have to emphatically say that the loss in friction and the loss in dexterity due to the glove was not something i like whatsoever. i agree completely with kevin's statement that a glove doesn't make you a safer belayer (i would actually probably argue the opposite). clamping down on the rope like a pitbull on a brisket makes you a safer belayer.

Reading the last several posts I am thinking of skiing when I was a little kid and there were still a lot of rope tows. Gripping the rope tightly was the wrong technique because it would yank your arm and then you with it, causing you to fall. You had to let the rope slowly slip through your gloves and gradually clamp. This quickly destroyed your gloves if they were not taped.

Clamping tightly is the correct belay technique so I would imagine your hand would move with the rope in the event of slippage in a higher factor fall.

I either just cleared things up or really added more confusion to the discussion, not sure.

In almost 30 years of climbing I've never used belay gloves for rock climbing. That includes catching partners considerably larger than me.

I'm thinking about changing that though, primarily due to the trend toward smaller rope diameters, not that that's a new thing. I've just noticed that on my newer ropes, 9.5 and smaller, there is noticeably less friction from the rope/belay device interaction than what I'm comfortable with, and I'm fairly sure its not due to my device. This has primarily been a concern to me during rapelling, and I'm thinking about re-rigging my entire rappel setup and including gloves as a component.

I throw another wrench into this discussion. I recently re-discoved rgold's posts on another forum re: gloves and have also recently read some reviews on gloves over on the Taco.

I think something to consider is WHAT TYPE of belay glove you're using. There are ALOT of differences in my opinion. I broke out an old pair of Metolius fingerless wall gloves the other day and HATED THEM for belaying. Too thick in the palm which killed a lot of friction I was hoping for. I've used them for raps in Red Rocks on double ropes and they're great for that but it's because I can modify my hand position to make them work well.

I think an IDEAL belay glove would be something with a much thinner and more dexterous palm ala a Mechanix Glove. You're trying to STOP the rope from sliding so grip is an important factor. A heavy duty rap/wall glove is not designed for this purpose, it's designed to hold up to the abuse of constant rope wear.

Most intriguing glove right now (and ugliest) is the Mad Rock Belay Glove...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLWp_ZELVxg

simple answer

NO

TRY CATCHING A FALL WITH A HIP BELAY

Gloves are fine for toproping or easier leads.When the climbing is more serious,or on a climb with the draws on out of respect for the leader I don't use gloves. I have had the meat of my hand pulled into ATCs and It hurt big time.
Remember that as the belayer you have the easy job. The climber has his or her ass on the line so you should belay them as best as possible. When doing a draws n pinkpoint the leader will grab that rope in an instant and you have to deliver that cord, so I think that gloves are fine on occasions.

will smith wrote:simple answer NO TRY CATCHING A FALL WITH A HIP BELAY

Yeah-I've caught several hundred falls, maybe more; I've caught a 25 footer on a hip belay. I haven't read this whole thread-it appears to have gotten off onto a number of tangents, but Wills' answer cuts to the chase. Now, if you're catching someone who's going to be thrashin' and danglin', you might want them for comfort; of course, that's why you spent a hundred bucks on a Gri Gri.

First- I do get a glove wearing PHD for reading this thread, right?? Please mail it ASAP- thanks. STOKED!

Second- who IS Mark Nelson?? Chuck definitely won that fight! And I agree, do it the Norris way- BE THE BELAY DEVICE.

Third- Does anyone know what simple is? If you prefer the feel and added comfort/safety of gloves- wear them. If not, dont. There is no right or wrong answer.

Finally- I too caught a FF45. No gloves- :) Climb safe people!!