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Base jump off the Diamond 7/28/08


Fear of an NPS planet · · colorado · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 5
Shawn Mitchell wrote:NPSFear: your info about the background of the ban is enlightening and frustrating, but doesn't really change the practical issues of trying not to provoke crackdown by officialdom.
Shawn, you are of course, right about changing the practical issues...I presented the info in an effort to get other climbers to place themselves in the proverbial shoes of BASE jumpers in a similar situation.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:When we climb, we might trigger rockfall, but we strive mightily to avoid it. In contrast, every BASE jumper knows, every time s/he jumps, that s/he will sound like a freight train coming down. Doesn't mean s/he shouldn't jump, but comparing possible accident with inevitable consequence is not a strong argument in the deliberation.
but are you saying that the "inevitable consequence" is the SOUND of rockfall? Personally, I have heard both the unexpected sounds of BIG rockfall as well as that of BASE jumpers in freefall, and I don't think that they sound too much alike, excepting possibly the sound of an opening canopy on a low jump, but that clearly wasn't an issue in Aaron's situation.

To try and simplify that point, which may or may not be glib, I say again that ALL climbers need to be aware of the potential of objects falling from above them when they're parked at the bottom of a cliff. Therefore, if one were to insinuate blame on a BASE jumper for a situation such as with Aaron's friends' injury it would seem like a lack of personal responsibility to me. Were it actually rockfall, and an amkle was still sprained, would it be the rock's fault?

So it may not be a strong argument as you put it, but I'm not a lawyer. I was simply trying to point out that there are MANY differences between a BASE jumper and a falling rock, including the sound.
cheers!
MHKR
kirra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 530
Fear of an NPS planet wrote:MHKR
welcome to planet mountain-project mr. MHKR aka FOANP

{{cluck-cluck}} ken's gonna have a field day with this one
Buff Johnson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2005 · Points: 1,145
SAL wrote: I was waiting on the answer for your question on the first support team for the FA of the diamond. I appear to be the only one that tried to answer. im probably wrong ::))
Jeeze, the original answer was more like a mouse squeak asking if it's okay to eat the peanut butter off the trap.

Anyhoo, to this day the original D1 remains a formidable line when, as most know, Dave Rearick & Bob Kamps on August 1, 1960, made the first ascent happen. Indeed with the help of the Alpine Rescue Team.

Thus, you may indeed have the peanut butter without the snap o the trap!

Later on in the timeline, this team helped RMRG perform the first actual evacuation off of this formation (a non-emergent mock mission). I believe Playing For Real depicts some of the background from the Boulder-folk.
Marc H · · Denver · Joined May 2007 · Points: 250
Aaron G wrote:One of the other guys did not think it was very cool. In the scramble he had sprained his ankle which was already swelling.
I'm sorry this guy got hurt, but anyone who bivies at the base of a rock monolith should understand that there is a good chance that at some point you're probably going to hear rockfall. If you don't have a plan in place for where to go in such an occurrence then you can't blame a BASE jumper when you get injured scrambling around trying to avoid something that's nowhere near you.

This also sounds like a good argument for legalizing this activity: If BASE jumping were legal, climbers would be more aware of their presence in the parks and they would be more ready to hear the loud sound of a jumper in flight.

The first time a saw a BASE jumper I was in the middle of a C2+ pitch on El Cap. I was literally standing on an inverted cam hook above some shwagg pieces that probably wouldn't have held a fall. The sound of the jumper scared the shit out of me, but I did what I always do when I hear what I think is rockfall: I don't panic and get myself as close to the wall as possible while keeping my head down. It's a big G-D stone and the chances of a climber getting hit with a rouge falling rock are minimal--especially if you don't panic and run around like a chicken with it's head cut off.

That was the third night on the wall. People jumped several other nights that we were on the wall, but the sound became familiar to us. It wasn't long after witnessing the first jump over our heads that we were able to differentiate the two sounds: falling rock and jumping bodies.

Shawn Mitchell wrote:In contrast, every BASE jumper knows, every time s/he jumps, that s/he will sound like a freight train coming down.
This sounds like a great argument to allow BASE jumpers to jump in an organized fashion. Someone mentioned sounding an air-horn before jumping but obviously that's not a good idea for the jumper himself because BASE jumping is still illegal. Interesting...

--Marc
Aaron G · · Driggs, ID · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 85
Fear of an NPS planet wrote: As climbers, any of us can accidentally trundle a rock at any time--we know this, and we know there may be others below us, and we STILL choose to climb there. As a climber at the base of a cliff, I am aware that at any time, rockfall can (and does) rain down from time to time whether naturally occurring or from another party. That's just a part of climbing that is a universally accepted fact. Does that mean we should only climb in desolate areas sans other people at the base of the climb? Of course not. Why should jumpers have to limit their activities for the same reason?
NPSFear - I agree that there is an inherent risk in climbing (its printed on everything!). I also agree with you that BASE jumpers probably should not be limited to where they can jump. I just think there are better places to do it. I can think of about 100 in the Moab area alone, including the tombstone. Trying to jump in a national park is kind of like trying to snowboard at a ski resort that doesn't allow it. Do you have a justifiable right to do it. Sure. Should you be allowed there just like skiers, absolutely. Do you look look like a punk to the authorities when you decide to poach it. YES.

I also have my own issues with how the NPS is run. (That same trip I received a full field sobriety test for riding a bicycle back from the pizza deck. I cannot believe, nor did I know that the ranger could have given me a full DUI for riding a bike, but that is for another thread). I would love to be able to ride my mountain bike with my dogs in a number of national parks, but I know I cant so I go elsewhere.

p.s. I love the logo.
SAL · · broomdigiddy · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 790
Mark Nelson wrote: Jeeze, the original answer was more like a mouse squeak asking if it's okay to eat the peanut butter off the trap. Anyhoo, to this day the original D1 remains a formidable line when, as most know, Dave Rearick & Bob Kamps on August 1, 1960, made the first ascent happen. Indeed with the help of the Alpine Rescue Team. Thus, you may indeed have the peanut butter without the snap o the trap! Later on in the timeline, this team helped RMRG perform the first actual evacuation off of this formation (a non-emergent mock mission). I believe Playing For Real depicts some of the background from the Boulder-folk.
yeah me!!!
Now where is my nutbutter?? :) hehehehe.
Brendan N · · Salt Lake City, Utah · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 378

"grayhghost: what is with that middle "h"? Your moniker would be so cool without it!"

Jeebus H. Christ! Isn't it obvious?

"It might be a different story in Switzerland for some reason."

Their cliffs are lower and don't allow the jumper to get away as far. Norway has few incidents for this same reason.

Aaron G · · Driggs, ID · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 85
Marc Horan wrote:The sound of the jumper scared the shit out of me, but I did what I always do when I hear what I think is rockfall: I don't panic and get myself as close to the wall as possible while keeping my head down. It's a big G-D stone and the chances of a climber getting hit with a rouge falling rock are minimal--especially if you don't panic and run around like a chicken with it's head cut off.
Sigh. Patronizing on the internet. Go figure.

What would you have done COULD you have run? Sounds like you didn't have a choice.

BTW, I was the one that ran towards the wall.
Marc H · · Denver · Joined May 2007 · Points: 250
Aaron G wrote: Sigh. Patronizing on the internet. Go figure. What would you have done COULD you have run? Sounds like you didn't have a choice. BTW, I was the one that ran towards the wall.
I wasn't trying to be patronizing. I was just trying to point out that the climber injuring his ankle was not the fault of the BASE jumper. I'm sorry if my post came off as patronizing; I'll try to be more straight-forward with my posts in the future.

All you can do is have a plan in place. If you're hanging out at the base of Half Dome, there's a good chance that some rock is going to come off of it. You just want to have a place in mind as to where you're going to go if you hear rockfall. Scrambling around and trying to find the safest place at the last minute is not the time to be doing it.

I don't know where you guys were, but running toward the wall is often the best course of action, IME. Obviously, under an overhang is the best place to be though.

Out of curiosity, Aaron, now that you've heard a BASE jumper (and I'm assuming you've heard falling rock before) do you think you could now differentiate the sounds? I know that it's not possible before you experience the actual sound of a jumper, but I'm curious if you're confident you know the difference now.

Again, sorry for the patronizing tone (ie "chicken with it's head cut off") in my last post. I didn't realize how it sounded until I reread it.

--Marc
kirra · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 530
Marc Horan wrote: (ie "chicken with it's head cut off")
not YOU marc..?!?!?!?!?
Marc H · · Denver · Joined May 2007 · Points: 250
kirra wrote: not YOU marc..?!?!?!?!?
I try not to be a intra-tard. Sometimes it slips through though, albeit accidentally. :)

--Marc
Jeff Barnow · · Boulder Co · Joined Aug 2005 · Points: 90
Aaron G wrote: Trying to jump in a national park is kind of like trying to snowboard at a ski resort that doesn't allow it. Do you have a justifiable right to do it. Sure. Should you be allowed there just like skiers, absolutely. Do you look look like a punk to the authorities when you decide to poach it. YES.
"Don't cut off your nose to spite your face" comes to mind.

burton.com/poachers/Default… - An example of Bullshit rules getting broken for good reason. I want a ski resort that bans gapers...whatever your posion. The old argument about snowboarders ruining snow or moguls is really just limited to people who suck. Snowplow down a slope on your skis and it hurts the snow just as much.

It boils down to discrimination. Why can a skier use a certain area but a snowboarder can't. Why should a climber be able to use a rock but a BASE jumper can't. If BASE jumpers truly posed a viable hazard to other people I could see but since I haven't heard of one BASE jumper killing anyone but themselves why should they be restricted.
Hank Caylor · · Glenwood Springs, CO · Joined Dec 2003 · Points: 615
Jeff Barnow wrote: If BASE jumpers truly posed a viable hazard to other people I could see but since I haven't heard of one BASE jumper killing anyone but themselves why should they be restricted.
Exactly, not one instance of BASE jumpers hurting ANY other person(besides themselves) can be reported. I used to think telling other climbers in Moab that we were gonna' jump in 10 seconds was the right thing to do. Then one of them lowered a 100' feet dow the wall and kicked out, maybe trying to high five me, I missed him by 10' in freefall. Scared the crap out of me. Being more of a climber than a BASE jumper makes me see both sides of the story possibly more clearly, but everyone is different. Very sorry about the sprained ankle, and SAL(I love you and will drink beer with you anytime man)(I mean that in a platonic way). BASE jumping and climbing go together like peanut butter and chocolate. Just gotta' find a medium somewhere. Peace and love.....and go get yer' knees in the breeze!!!!
craig · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 60
Hank Caylor wrote:..I mean that in a platonic way..
Hank, While I'm confident of your heterosexuality, the need for classifiers such as "platonic" on sentences out of your mouth just sort of creeps me out.

We never did get to huck your first descent near me together - maybe once I'm current again we can meet out there sometime - in a purely platonic way of course ;) - I'd be stoked get my knees in the breeze, even if just for 2 seconds.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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