The Overhand Knot?

I was recently told by an AMGA rock guide that the ovehand knot is bomber for joining two ropes to rap off of and as a replacement for the double fishemans for tying cordage into a cordelette. I have also been informed that that is what NOLS is also teaching. Am I mistaken?

What do you guys think about this?

You are referring to the European death knot. It is only bomber if you know what you are doing. People have died using it incorrectly. I use it almost always during rappels, I can't imagine why you would use it for tying cordage. For raps-yeah. For cordage-Nay.

The EDK is a great knot, leave a good sized tail or tie two EDKs

Part of the appeal of the EDK is its low profile. It doesn't get stuck in cracks and whatnot as easily as other knots when you're pulling the rope after a rappel. But make sure you tie it right - leave a tail like Mike described, and tie a knot in the tail for backup.

Dressing the knot and tail length are VERY key. Otherwise it's a worthy knot for the right situation. I use it, but mainly for situations where I have specific concern about the knot catching. Otherwise, I use the double or triple fisherman's.

I would never use it for a cordelette, because of the attention it requires. That comment doesn't make sense to me.

Definitely read here; Look at the EDK study:
xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/

Read here for other related discussions:
mountainproject.com/v/gener…
mountainproject.com/v/climb…

John J. Glime wrote:You are referring to the European death knot. It is only bomber if you know what you are doing. People have died using it incorrectly.

Any chance you have a reference for anyone who's died using an EDK??

I've heard some sketchy stories of folks (the guy Zion for instance) whose figure eight knot "may" have rolled, but, not an EDK.

Use the EDK exclusively for tying two ropes together for rappelling m'self.

Cheers.

John J. Glime wrote:You are referring to the European death knot. It is only bomber if you know what you are doing. People have died using it incorrectly.

Really John? I'm not so sure about that. Tests of even poorly dressed overhand knots show that the knot is very strong. If tied loosely, it will roll and then retie. Perhaps you are thinking about the rappelling accident where the guy joined the ropes with a figure 8? Now that is definitely the Death Knot. That one rolls and comes untied, which is what happened to the poor guy in that accident in Zion.

I use the overhand knot for rappelling. I like it because it does not snag easily. I make sure the knot has long tails (at least 18 inches). I pull hard on each of the four ends sticking out. Then I pull on each one again. Then I tie an overhand knot as a stopper in one of the 18 inch tails and snug the stopper down against the knot to resist roll over. An old time Gunks climber taught me this procedure.

Has anyone actually had a flat overhand roll on them or their partner while rapping?

I've never seen it.

Haven't had a problem with strands of 2 different diameters either.

Brian in SLC wrote: Any chance you have a reference for anyone who's died using an EDK??

Not died, but close?
geocities.com/danielzimmerl…

Really, many more deaths appear to be from people thinking the flat figure-eight is safer.

The think what I like best about the knot is the name.

• bashfully* "oops..."

Thank you for questioning me. For some reason I always thought the Spaceshot death was from the EDK. The x-mission article I have read a few times... I am not sure why I had a disconnect there.

So I definitely stand corrected, but for what it is worth, I now feel even better about using the EDK, so thanks.

Mark Nelson wrote:Has anyone actually had a flat overhand roll on them or their partner while rapping? I've never seen it. Haven't had a problem with strands of 2 different diameters either.

No, I've never seen an overhand roll. In those tests they are getting the knot to roll at 900-1200 lbs or something insane like that.

Avery, thanks for that link. Pretty spooky. Best to leave three feet of tail and dress that EDK. I always make sure that thing is tight.

Tim Stich wrote: Avery, thanks for that link. Pretty spooky. Best to leave three feet of tail and dress that EDK. I always make sure that thing is tight.

I remember reading that in ANAM I seem to recall back a few years ago.

The report sounded pretty dubious. "I don't think we can draw any absolute conclusions from this incident."

I've done a bit of testing on it in the home lab. Dry ropes, frozen ropes, loosely tied knot, jumping on rappel to quickly load it, easing onto it slowly. Just doesn't fail for me.

Brian in SLC wrote: I've done a bit of testing on it in the home lab.

Link to some of that said testing...

mtncommunity.org/dc/dcboard…

Cheers

Brian in SLC wrote: Link to some of that said testing... mtncommunity.org/dc/dcboard… Cheers

Thanks for that Brian! I really enjoy seeing the variety of testing, and the reasons folks can have complete confidence in what they say (besides being full of BS!).

Cheers

I've had an overhand roll into the backup overhand twice before. Twin 8mm ropes; both times in the alpine with multiple rappels and the ropes were wet.

Always tie a backup. I usually do two overhands, but one overhand on both and another overhand snugged up on one of the tails works just as well.

Tie off or fall off.

Any opinions on using a rethreaded figure-8 (end-to-end, NOT parallel, and with long tails)? I learned to use this from a friend who's a long-time climber and guide, and it's bomber as far as I can tell. Also reasonably easy to untie when you get to the ground.

JL

Brian in SLC wrote: Any chance you have a reference for anyone who's died using an EDK??

I just read a case study of someone who died with the EDK as the knot.

But the knot didn't fail,
nor the anchor,
nor the personal equipment of the rappeller.

They even weight tested the setup before the incident.

What happened was both strands went through the anchor rigging leaving only the knot on the back end. To describe it -- kinda like putting a bight of rope thru the biners & not putting each strand on each side of the rigging to counter each other.

The weight test held as the rappeller was not very large and also was on an angled slab. Once her full weight was on the rope, the knot pulled right thru the rigging. Something like 4 experienced climbers were at the station including the rappeller; everyone was just focused about double checking the harness & the anchor pro; the rigging wasn't double checked.

Mike Morley wrote: High profile, easily stuck upon retrieval. Same problem as double or triple fishermans.

Good point, though I don't think the rethreaded eight is nearly as bulky as a fisherman's. EDK would be the one I'd use if there was any chance of the rope getting stuck.

JL

saxfiend wrote:Any opinions on using a rethreaded figure-8 (end-to-end, NOT parallel, and with long tails)? I learned to use this from a friend who's a long-time climber and guide, and it's bomber as far as I can tell. Also reasonably easy to untie when you get to the ground. JL

Called the Flemish bend if I'm not mistaken.

Great knot to tie two ropes together. Bit lower profile than a double fisherman's.

Will - for what its worth - I was also told the same thing by an AMGA guide a number of years ago and started using this technique with great success. I have found the over hand knot presents less drag over corners making ropes, easier to pull, and is over all more efficient. Best of luck.

Will A. wrote:I was recently told by an AMGA rock guide that the ovehand knot is bomber for joining two ropes to rap off of and as a replacement for the double fishemans for tying cordage into a cordelette. I have also been informed that that is what NOLS is also teaching. Am I mistaken? What do you guys think about this?