----Stolen Draws----

Kinda bummed to return to Head Cheese at Shelf to find most of my draws snaked. However the ones on the example were left ( I wonder why?). I pretty sure that starting this thread will not bring anything productive in terms of lost material. Thought I might put a warning out there, DON'T LEAVE YOUR DRAWS HANGING AT SHELF. Some selfish individual sees project draws as booty.

sucks that your draws got jacked. some people are just lame like that but you did leave them on the wall unattended. how long did you leave them on the wall?

I left my unlocked car in downtown dever near federal with the keys in it, and some one stole it! just a heads up. DON'T LEAVE YOUR KEYS IN YOUR UNLOCKED CAR AROUND DOWNTOWN DENVER.

I left a $100 bill taped to my front door and some one stole that too. I wonder if it was the same guy? DON'T LEAVE YOUR MONEY TAPED TO YOUR FRONT DOOR.

LOL

Bwahahhaahaha,
Hilarious

Taking draws off someone's project is the lamest of the lame. We've been dealing with a bit of this at Rumney. The consensus now seems to be that certain cliffs have fixed draws, others don't. This isn't a very workable solution, in my opinion.

I think it's pretty clear when draws are left on project, as opposed to an errant draw that someone used for bailing or cleaning purposes. Somewhere, somehow, there will be karmic payback for those who steal draws.

I also think it's lame to make fun of someone who's draws have been stolen.

Jay Knower wrote:Taking draws off someone's project is the lamest of the lame. We've been dealing with a bit of this at Rumney. The consensus now seems to be that certain cliffs have fixed draws, others don't. This isn't a very workable solution, in my opinion. I think it's pretty clear when draws are left on project, as opposed to an errant draw that someone used for bailing or cleaning purposes. Somewhere, somehow, there will be karmic payback for those who steal draws. I also think it's lame to make fun of someone who's draws have been stolen.

Hey man, it has been noted time and time again, if you leave it, don't be surprised when it isn't there upon your return. My comment was more so directed towards the $100 bill analogy, effin brilliant. Getting your stuff jacked sucks, but truth be told, some people really suck and if you cannot factor that risk into every endeavor you make in this world I'll give you one guess who the victim is gonna be. Bitching about it gets you nowhere as the thread starter suggests. But the fact remains, some people really suck and the only way to keep their bullshit from affecting your world is to take prophylactic measures against them. Just don't present the opportunity.

I agree with Jay, taking draws off someone's project is totally lame. Often, the folks who are leaving draws on projects are the same folks who are putting out huge investments of time and money so that "you" can go out and just climb routes. Sometimes, it takes a few days or weeks to send a project. Most people I know that are working projects are not getting free draws from a sponsor. If gear thieves spent the time and effort to climb and train rather than "work" at cleaning someone else's draws off a steep route(often strenuous and time consuming) maybe they would become good enough to get free gear(free of bad karma) from a sponsor. BTW, a climbing partner of mine left his wallet in a packed Arcata bar on a Saturday night and guess what? Sunday morning he went back and it was there. The fact that there was no money in it on Sunday is still a mystery...he can't remember if it went to his beers or not! The point is: Those who are stealing gear know it! Those who defend them , regardless of "justifications", are just as bad.

Making fun of this guy's situation comes across as really mean-spirited. It's too bad that as climbing community we can't be more supportive and trusting of each other.

Leaving keys in an unlocked car or money taped to one's front door does not compare to leaving quickdraws on a 5.12b route. Who, other than climbers, would want to steal quickdraws? You'd think anyone who is able to climb at the 5.12b level would know the draws are not hanging there for anyone's taking.

*** wrote:Leaving keys in an unlocked car or money taped to one's front door does not compare to leaving quickdraws on a 5.12b route. Who, other than climbers, would want to steal quickdraws? You'd think anyone who is able to climb at the 5.12b level would know the draws are not hanging there for anyone's taking.

12d.

I don't condone taking draws off a project. In fact, I applaud the efforts of people in forums like this one to return gear they've found on routes. I'm sorry the OPs gear got lifted, but I'm not shocked, and I wouldn't personally leave my draws on a route.

Expecting all climbers to share the same ethics and the same view on "accepted practices" isn't realistic. We didn't all sign some document in blood before we started climbing. In fact some people's climbing ethic leads them to believe that leaving gear behind violates LNT. This view taken to an extreme suggests that bolting is wrong.

sgauss wrote:I don't condone taking draws off a project. In fact, I applaud the efforts of people in forums like this one to return gear they've found on routes. I'm sorry the OPs gear got lifted, but I'm not shocked, and I wouldn't personally leave my draws on a route. Expecting all climbers to share the same ethics and the same view on "accepted practices" isn't realistic. We didn't all sign some document in blood before we started climbing. In fact some people's climbing ethic leads them to believe that leaving gear behind violates LNT. This view taken to an extreme suggests that bolting is wrong.

We might not have all signed some document as climbers, but as human beings, respect for others property is a basic tenet in all societies. Just because some people choose not follow this, doesn't make it right or acceptable.

*** wrote:Leaving keys in an unlocked car or money taped to one's front door does not compare to leaving quickdraws on a 5.12b route. Who, other than climbers, would want to steal quickdraws? You'd think anyone who is able to climb at the 5.12b level would know the draws are not hanging there for anyone's taking.

Apparently, it is the same thing to a thief. Just because someone is a fellow climber does preclude them from being a thief.

How often do we get a post like this in the Front Range? Once a month at least. So.....WAKE UP!

Welcome to the Front Range Bitches! Lesson learned. I'm not condoning this behavior but we live in the real world adjust your behaviors accordingly or get burned. I'd love to leave draws on my projects but I know that they will get stolen so I don't leave them hanging.

I think there are two issues at work here. First, there's the issue of stealing. Stealing is wrong. We all know it's wrong.

In my eyes, the second issue has to do with the concept of fixed draws. This is what we've been having a problem with at Rumney lately. Some people think that fixed draws should only be on routes of certain grades. So people take it upon themselves to remove the draws, and sometimes (rarely) get the draws back to their owners.

I think that taking draws down for ethical reasons is almost as bad as simply stealing them. I hate having others force their ethics upon me. It certainly doesn't make me change my mind. In fact, I'll probably just entrench myself more in my idea of ethics, but maybe that's my issue.

You guys are missing the point. What is left behind is out of your control and not safe. This has been proven by all the threads talking about stolen gear that have recently come up. Everyone knows stealing is lame, illegal and wrong but it happens everyday in all corners of the globe. If you don't want to lose your stuff don't leave it out of your site.

For example...kids leave crash pads in RMNP and the marmots start chewing on them. A bunch of people get all pissed about destroying the environment and remove the crash pads...many kids were just robbed of their crash pads justifiably.

You stash your gear under the diamond and return to find it gone. A boulderer pissed from getting his pads jacked decided to return the favor (completely fictional). Although I don't think it's wrong to stash your gear for a diamond route it happened and you can't stop it.

You leave bail gear on a route to return and find it gone and no one posted finding it on all the mountain climbing websites. Did you actually really expect to see it again?

You leave you draws on sport climbs across the nation...a climber comes along climbs the route and cleans your gear upon moving on to the next route.

Christopher Craft states: "DON'T LEAVE YOUR DRAWS HANGING AT SHELF"

I propose DON'T LEAVE ANYTHING THAT YOU WANT TO KEEP ANYWHERE BUT WITH YOU.

Ne humanus crede ---Trust no human. I do not know where the line ever gets crossed with climbers, I do not pull nearly hard enough to warrent leaving anything for me to come back and work on...bail off and hope I get back to the same spot to retrieve my gear maybe. To me it is simple. I have had stuff stolen by friends (er I suppose) and at the crags. Either way it sucks. I am very diligent about keeping an eye on my stuff. I am not saying it is the fault of the victim, but I do not trust anyone. In college I had a get together at my house of close friends, by the end of the night they pilfed me of my $500 vegas money but conveniently left my brand new shiney rack of cams. I guess I can be thankful craigs list wasn't in existence yet!Since then I am very careful. Just add up what it costs to string together one sport line or one trad line and you will feel very attached to your gear, not to mention the time off and expense you will incur.

I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but here I go anyway...

There is some hypocrisy here. A lot of people on this thread are decrying the removal of the draws from a route at Shelf (call it theft or whatever) while spraying vitriol all over the people who stash bouldering pads up in RMNP. To first order, this is a double standard. Either leaving gear stashed is okay or it is wrong. Doesn't matter if it's draws at Shelf, ropes on the Diamond, or pads at Chaos. The fact that it's a project doesn't really change that.

I'm sorry you lost your gear but if I came across a route full of draws with no one else around, I'd clean them and put up a lost and found note here. Same with if I found a crash pad below a boulder or a bunch of slings on some alpine route.

Now I'm not saying that the person who cleaned your route had honorable intentions. If nothing shows up here (or wherever) in lost and found, sounds like theft. But it's entirely possible someone out there like me (except able to climb 5.12) was just cleaning up.

Charles,

i have to disagree with you. it is not hypocrisy to expect your quickdraws to be left at a sport climbign area and to expect people to remove pads from a bouldering area.

First, let us agree that the community abides by a set of rules. it is commonly accepted that in some areas leavign draws on a route is acceptable. in fact, some areas almost all routes will have fixed draws.

Second, shelf road and RMNP are two different areas with two different user groups. Shelf is frequented almost soley by climbers (at least back by the cliffs). As well, it is not a delicate alpine environment. RMNP has multiple user groups (some of whom may not appreciate climbing). In addition, RMNP is a sensitive alpine environment. Marmots eating foam prbably is not good for them. In addition, there is some risk to our access to the bouldering in the park and it is further compromised by the folks leaving pads up there.

Third, you are full of it. i seriously doubt you cut tat left for rappels on alpine routes.

so yeah, i guess your right: your oppinion is unpopular with me

Well well well,
It seems as if some folks are starting to realize that in a community you take the good with the bad and cope. A lot of folks here seem to believe that just b/c someone is a member of the climbing community they have a higher level of ethics than any other community. Well that's all fine and dandy until the idealists start standing on their soap boxes when the human dynamic commonly referred to as personality conflicts with their visions of utopia. Bummer eh? Well, Michael Vick is a professional football player that likes to kill dogs, Pat Tilman was a professional football player that laid down his multi million dollar career to fight for this country, both of which were members of the pro football community, yin, yang, the righteous and the wicked, whatever you want to call it. Deal with it and stop being naive

Personally I have to agree with the claims of hypocrisy here. If you leave gear on an established route in an established climbing area (or any area for that matter) and they are gone you forfeited your right to get upset when someone cleans your mess, just like the boulderers that lost their crash pads, just like anything abandoned anywhere. Personally I would post the gear if I cleaned it with some choice words (provided the gear was not left in an emergency situation), but my personality differs from many so that's me, everyone is not like me, I like it that way, that's why I am me.

Anyhow, like I said earlier, it sucks, but lesson learned, my advice is to buy some more draws, go climbing, make sure that you bring them home with you when you're done, and have fun.

"One man gathers while another man spills"-JG&RH