Shifting the belay

David Kwrote:

The teeth aren't engaged; 

It seems like you're not understanding what David Coley said:

David Coley wrote: ...The rope can't feed back through the trax...

or else I'm just confused.

JaredGwrote:

It seems like you're not understanding what David Coley said:

Correct  He is not. 

or else I'm just confused.

Nope. David K is confused even though he is trying to correct everyone else. Embarrassing for him.  Which makes Brian in Slc’s concerns valid, especially lowering the second.  

Yep, looks like I was wrong on that--David Coley was talking about using the progress capture. I'm sorry.

That wouldn't necessarily be dangerous if done correctly, but doesn't seem to add anything except friction, which is precisely what I'd be trying to avoid with a pulley. It seems like the solution is to not engage the progress capture, as it seems counterproductive.

HI,

It is common to have a short easy linking pitch on long routes, especially ones in the mountains. Removing these can help speed the whole day. Using a trax offers some advantages:

1. the link is often side ways, and a trax (with teeth engaged) causes less friction than a carabiner

2. the main pitch + link might or might not be longer than the rope. Often one can't remember the lengths of the pitches, particularly on the link which you might not have left the stance thinking you were going to climb. Often one just hits the belay, and looks up over the easy ground and wonders how far it is to the next belay and how long the pitch you climbed was. Hence one tends to be cautious with distances - or use a trax just in case one needs to simul climb the last 5m. 

3. As you are probably going to run the rope out to close to 60m the drag can be bad. I'm not talking 8a overhanging straight ups, but alpine around every roof and corner and spike climbing. Placing a trax at the anchor (or somewhere else) once the drag hits helps. One pulls up some rope, mantles (or whatever) with no drag, repeats. Hence with a trax you will get to the belay, and without your harness and pants (hey, I just used the American word; feel quite proud of that) being pulled down to your ankles.

One word of caution, there is no way to lower the second once the trax is placed. Hence this isn't the thing to do if they might get into trouble or want to play on the crux for a bit. However, if either were true you would not have carried on to the next anchor. You have decided to climb faster and hence accept a few more risks, and of course, if that means you finish earlier before the rain or dark, it might be the safer call.

I hope that is useful

D

Brian in SLCwrote:

You still have to build an anchor to clip the pulley to.  And, it needs to be robust enough to prevent your partner from a pendulum swinging fall.

Why do you think that the pulley must be clipped to an anchor? Do you usually build anchors at traverse points or just clip a single piece?

If a single piece was good enough without the pulley why would it need more robustness just because you added a pulley?

Alex Fletcherwrote:

Why do you think that the pulley must be clipped to an anchor? Do you usually build anchors at traverse points or just clip a single piece?

If a single piece was good enough without the pulley why would it need more robustness just because you added a pulley?

Risk to your partner...  You could belay off a single piece that is "good enough".  Think about it though...your second is climbing up...all of your lead gear could fall out while they're ascending and it wouldn't be a big deal if the route is near straight up because you have a solid belay anchor.  At a traverse, if they were climbing up to that point, and popped off...that anchor (single bomber piece, a couple pieces, etc) has to work to prevent the pendi situation.

I've fallen below a traverse where a partner didn't place a piece to protect the traverse.  Took a huge whip and the rope schredded over the edge at the traverse.  Pretty darn scary, for both of us.  One of the few times in nearly 40 years of climbing that I saw my life flash in front of my eyes...

Protect your second on traverses...pulley or not.  Sometimes that's one bomber piece, sometimes its a couple/three pieces.  Remember the load path is not straight up and down...

Let me try again. 

The original question involves a sharp turn in the rope at the end of a pitch. Using a pulley instead of a carabiner to run the rope through is the least friction.  The remainder of the pitch would be protected just as normal. Regular spacing. Good placements. 

The pulley itself doesn’t need any better a piece than any other piece of lead protection normally placed. 

If you find yourself regularly building anchors at every sharp bend then...maybe that’s just where you’re supposed to belay instead of linking pitches. 

or clip a pulley to a piece and continue climbing normally with reduced rope drag protecting the continuing pitch as normal. Not building an anchor. 

So to be clear Brian, you trust one piece to catch a lead fall all the way up the vertical part of the route, but don't trust one piece to catch a follower (top rope) fall at the beginning of a traverse? You need a full SERENE anchor to catch them there?

I suppose it's possible the follower will not realize there's a traverse, continue upward (now on lead) and when they run into the progress capture you've engaged for mysterious reasons after reaching the end of the 10 or so feet of slack you've left out also for mysterious reasons, they'll take a factor 3 fall onto the pulley. I'd definitely want an anchor then.

Brian in SLCwrote:

Risk to your partner...  You could belay off a single piece that is "good enough".  Think about it though...your second is climbing up...all of your lead gear could fall out while they're ascending and it wouldn't be a big deal if the route is near straight up because you have a solid belay anchor.  At a traverse, if they were climbing up to that point, and popped off...that anchor (single bomber piece, a couple pieces, etc) has to work to prevent the pendi situation.

I've fallen below a traverse where a partner didn't place a piece to protect the traverse.  Took a huge whip and the rope schredded over the edge at the traverse.  Pretty darn scary, for both of us.  One of the few times in nearly 40 years of climbing that I saw my life flash in front of my eyes...

Protect your second on traverses...pulley or not.  Sometimes that's one bomber piece, sometimes its a couple/three pieces.  Remember the load path is not straight up and down...

This deserves to be on  billlboard somewhere.  The lead climber can decide on whatever risk level they want to embrace, but the second doesn't get to decide, they have to live with the leader's decisions.  If I'm walking 20 feet or more too the side on a ledge, there's no way I'm going to protect the second with just a single piece.  Which is another reason to consider just belaying at the top and walking together to the next stance, because (in my book) you're already obliged to build at least a mini-anchor to make sure the second is safe.

I didn't take the fall Brian describes, but I've had clueless leaders leave me with a twenty-foot pendulum onto a ledge and had to go into soloing mode.  Fine, I've soloed plenty of stuff anyway, but I resent being forced to do it because someone else isn't thinking clearly or is just plain oblivious.

David Kwrote:

So to be clear Brian, you trust one piece to catch a lead fall all the way up the vertical part of the route, but don't trust one piece to catch a follower (top rope) fall at the beginning of a traverse? You need a full SERENE anchor to catch them there?

Personally, on a trad route, I usually don't trust a single piece to catch any fall.  If I think there's a risk, I double up.  Maybe triple up.  Really depends on the rock and how bomber the gear is.

Load path for a second falling below an anchor at a traverse will be different than a lead climber leading up through the same terrain.  Lead climber falls straight down.  Follower will too, if, the piece doesn't blow.  The load path for the force on the anchor at the traverse will be a different direction for the follower.  My advice would be to place a piece that can take a force not just in the direction of a follower's fall, but, also to consider the direction of the belay as well, especially if it's 90 degrees to the side.

When I mention an "anchor", it could be a single, quickly placed cam in a captive horizontal slot...truck stop.  Certainly wouldn't need more than that to protect a follower below as they climb up to that anchor.

Ever had a piece of gear fall out after a lead, while your partner is following?  I think pretty common.  The action of the belay, pulling up the rope, sometimes shakes a piece of gear loose. No biggie if its a straight up route.  Bad idea jeans if its the piece at the traverse.  Folks should just consider that scenario is all.  To protect the follower, the piece should be bomber at the traverse.  Whether that's multiple pieces configured to take a load in two directions (belayer and follower), or, a single piece that can't move, lift, walk or rotate out of position and pop loose.

Your partner, following a pitch, will rarely get hurt if they weight the rope on a climb.  Unless they're at an unprotected traverse.  Plenty of grim accident info out there that backs that up.

I think we're somewhat talking past each other...anyhow...

As far as using a micro traxion at the traverse, I rigged one for fun.  Compared pulling a rope through it versus just a carabiner.  90 degree angle.  Rope rubs against the pulley sheave.  Really, not much reduction in friction that I could feel.  Seems like the rope fed better through the biner.  Just has more room to roam....  But, YMMV.

Cheers!

Brian in SLCwrote:

Personally, on a trad route, I usually don't trust a single piece to catch any fall.  If I think there's a risk, I double up.  Maybe triple up.  Really depends on the rock and how bomber the gear is.

Load path for a second falling below an anchor at a traverse will be different than a lead climber leading up through the same terrain.  Lead climber falls straight down.  Follower will too, if, the piece doesn't blow.  The load path for the force on the anchor at the traverse will be a different direction for the follower.  My advice would be to place a piece that can take a force not just in the direction of a follower's fall, but, also to consider the direction of the belay as well, especially if it's 90 degrees to the side.

When I mention an "anchor", it could be a single, quickly placed cam in a captive horizontal slot...truck stop.  Certainly wouldn't need more than that to protect a follower below as they climb up to that anchor.

Okay, when I say "anchor" I mean 3+ solid pieces, tied together with something solid that's then equalized and redundantly attached to the rope somehow. That's what I thought you were talking about, and my point was that that's serious overkill in the vast majority situations.

Now it sounds like we're just going over the basics of placing gear--in that case, sure, place a bomber piece at the beginning of the traverse, and if you don't have something bomber, keep placing pieces until the lot of them adds up to bomber. Basically the same thing I'd do for myself on lead, sure. But a whole lot of the time, I can get a really good piece there, so a second piece really isn't necessary. One piece isn't ever an anchor to me, but if that's what you call an anchor, fine, I guess we're on the same page.

If I'm following a route, then it's not a huge deal to me if these pieces aren't all exactly at the beginning of the traverse. If the first piece is at the top of the traverse, and the second piece is 4 feet to the right, I'm not particularly peeved that my leader thought I could handle a 4-foot swing. There are are exceptions, like if the swing would drag the rope across a sharp edge.

I really do think I place gear pretty conservatively. At this point I've taken enough falls on gear that I've lost count. I've been surprised by pieces holding a few times, but I've never been surprised by a piece failing. And my only fall-related injury to date was bouldering.

When I say you don't need an anchor at the beginning of a traverse, I'm not saying you leave a 20 foot sideways runout. I'm saying, you place a piece at the beginning of the traverse, then a few feet later, then a few feet later, doubling or tripling up only if the gear is bad or the moves are hard for the follower's abilities, just as I generally would do for myself if I'm on vertical territory. That's not what I'd call an "anchor", but it's certainly showing adequate concern for the safety of my follower.

Ever had a piece of gear fall out after a lead, while your partner is following?  I think pretty common.  The action of the belay, pulling up the rope, sometimes shakes a piece of gear loose. No biggie if its a straight up route.  Bad idea jeans if its the piece at the traverse.  Folks should just consider that scenario is all.  To protect the follower, the piece should be bomber at the traverse.  Whether that's multiple pieces configured to take a load in two directions (belayer and follower), or, a single piece that can't move, lift, walk or rotate out of position and pop loose.

Of course, the piece needs to be multidirectional.