Advise on guiding.

March 19th last year I made a post about thinking about becoming a guide and got some awesome information. I'm Finally looking to start getting into guiding. Is it a bad time to start all things considered? Idk, maybe. Guides of MP you tell me. Im looking to take my WFR and SPI early next year. I've been climbing for over 4 years and I think my climbing skills are diverse and strong enough to do it. Once school ends in December my plan, if travel is still allowed, is to head down to Potrero through February to get strong; I love being there anyways. I'm planning on singing up to take my WFR in Wisconsin through NOLS which starts early February. Then I plan on working at a climbing gym or elsewhere until I can take my SPI (which hypothetically could be done shortly after the WFR, or before if I really wanted). I haven't found a SPI class yet so I'm open to suggestions. I'm planning on getting my WFR through NOLS. I'd love to hear about your experience with NOLS if you've been certified through them. I'd like to spend a few seasons at the Red, so many good experiences there... what has your experience of guiding at the red been like?

TLDR: Looking for Input on:

•Is it a bad time to get into guiding?

•Recommendations for SPI classes

•Whats your experience been with NOLS?

•How has guiding at the Red been for you?

•Should I look for a guiding company that will hire me without a SPI in hoped that they help pay or is that atypical of companies to do?

Any other tips or suggestions from guides would also be appreciated. 

NOLS is absolutely fantastic. I have nothing to compare it to other than my EMT school which in comparison...I learned and retained so much more in my WFR than I did my EMT. 10 days vs. A semester...NOLS is very hands on learning. Its 1/2 in class 1/2 hands on. Unsure with COVID how they're doing that (you may Want to ask) but I loved it.

 Even if you don't get your guide cert having a WFR opens so many doors AND you're now a better partner when it comes to adventures as you have more tools to help if you ever get in a rescue type situation. Can't give information on the guide stuff but figured I'd chime in about NOLS. 

I did SPI this summer although I did it for development of my climbing acumen rather that career development. Not planning on being a professional guide

First thing is you don't need to be super strong climber to take SPI and get a lot out of it. Take a look at the pre-reqs and the book. Mostly it is about knowing the basics, setting up topropes in a wide variety of situations, and a bunch of what if scenarios. Also remember the certification exam is totally separate from the course 

Not sure it matter so much where you take it as the curriculum is pretty set, but maybe you could take it at any area you plan to guide around?  

As an SPI, you're not really a "guide." The training and certification for guides is much longer, comprehensive and more expensive compared to an SPI,  (I'm not a guide or an SPI.)

I hope you enjoy it and it works out for you,

FrankPS wrote:

As an SPI, you're not really a "guide." The training and certification for guides is much longer, comprehensive and more expensive compared to an SPI,  (I'm not a guide or an SPI.)

I hope you enjoy it and it works out for you,

This is worth paying attention to. The SPI is set up so that your goal is to TEACH others who have an interest in learning additional climbing skills and utilizing them independently. It is assumed that you will be taking out other climbers. The much more comprehensive guiding cert path takes you to a place where you are presumed to be the only person with climbing skills taking a group of interested randoms. This is generalized, but I think a decent way of looking at it.

That said, many climbing outfits will have people certified in either doing both. I think SPI is the logical first step if your long term goal is to have uber-certs. 

T Lego wrote:

This is worth paying attention to. The SPI is set up so that your goal is to TEACH others who have an interest in learning additional climbing skills and utilizing them independently. It is assumed that you will be taking out other climbers. The much more comprehensive guiding cert path takes you to a place where you are presumed to be the only person with climbing skills taking a group of interested randoms. This is generalized, but I think a decent way of looking at it.

That said, many climbing outfits will have people certified in either doing both. I think SPI is the logical first step if your long term goal is to have uber-certs. 

A bit confused by the following,

"The SPI is set up so that your goal is to TEACH others who have an interest in learning additional climbing skills and utilizing them independently. It is assumed that you will be taking out other climbers."

It is definitely true that SPI doesn't make you a GUIDE.  This is what the AMGA says,

"  .according to the AMGA, a guide is someone working with one or two clients in technical terrain, who limits teaching to only what a client needs to know to move efficiently in that terrain.  A climbing instructor typically works with more people and focuses on educating and teaching skills to clients."

People with SPI only will often take single clients, or small groups, out to single pitch areas, regardless of whether the clients have prior experience, to "instruct" them. Furthermore, the SPI is required to take the MPI. 

This is of course different from the (MUCH more intensive) AMGA Guide track:

https://amga.com/rock-guide/

It is never a bad time to start doing something you want to do.

SPI will not make you a guide. Many places will Officer you a job without It and will train you in-house and/or reimburse you for other training/cents.

NOLS is good but pricey, lots of other companies doing WFR for less $$$, any WFR opens doors doors you.

Guiding is amazing but most of the time clients are beginners doing easier stuff, you don’t have to be so strong of a climber, your skills and strength are probably enough already.

If you're committed to guiding you can skip the SPI and go straight into the Rock Guide Course.  The SPI course is not required on the AMGA Guide track. You can save yourself ~$1000 by skipping SPI. The Rock Guide Course is more expensive though, so if you're on the fence about guiding, it may be better to get your SPI and work as a single pitch for a year or so to find out if you like guiding before committing to the more expensive courses. Depends on how committed you're feeling. 

I would suggest checking out multiple different organizations when it comes to “guide” certifications. From the AMGA, PCIA, and PCGI, all are different and you can argue that the AMGA is the “best” for any type of guiding then sure go that route, but I’ve met many tremendous guides in all mentioned organizations, who are competent and knowledgeable.

The Red is great for single pitch terrain, lots of variety in anchors and some mixed styles of climbing.

Take the SPI course or named equivalent for other organizations and see what you think, whether you need time on the rock or not to acquire your certifications.

If you’re good a guiding and provide quality experiences for people, then I don’t think what organization you are certified under matters. But that’s me and some people would burn you at the stake for saying that.

Guiding is kind of catch-22 in that you need to be certified in order to guide, but in order to be certified you need to have experience guiding(in my opinion) since a lot of the technical systems(anchors) and transitions are what you use while guiding. So, it’s interesting.

I’m in the process of doing what you are wanting to do and this is what I’ve discovered so far.

Let me know if I can help in anyway. 

The opportunities are definitely not what they used to be but starting your training isn't a bad idea.  Of course check out the costs and see if you're comfortable with them and the fact that you may not see a return on your investment for a while.  You're looking at around $2000 to $2500 in course costs for SPI and WFR plus lodging, travel and food.

At the core SPIs and AMGA Guides do the same thing.  Take clients climbing, teach them some stuff and look after their safety / manage risks.  The SPI course will go over hard skills and introduce the soft skills needed to do this in the limited single pitch terrain.  In the course, the focus moves away from your climbing to the needs of the client.  This can be a major shift in mindset for many climbers.  SPI is a good first step to instructing/guiding and useful even if you don't end up working for a company.  The investment cost is much lower then AMGA Guiding courses

I often recommend the option of not taking the exam right after the course.  If a lot of the systems are new and/or if you haven't managed a group before it can be advantageous to take some time to practice the skills and dial them in.  There is a time limit on how long you can wait to take the exam.  Be aware SPIs have to retake the exam every 3 years to maintain the certification.

If you are planning on working at a gym see if they will pay for your CWI.  

Contact guiding companies in the area you want to work and see if they are hiring and if they'll pay for your courses. They can also give you a clearer idea of what they look for and how guiding is going for them.  Also see if they are running any SPI courses and think about taking it with them if they are.  You'll get to know the terrain and you can start a relationship with some of the people who might hire you. It also gives you some insight into what they are like and how they operate. 

NOLS/WMI are fantastic.  SOLO is too.   I've taken multiple classes with them over the past 3 decades. Even if you aren't going to use it for a job, getting the training is great for your own ventures into the outdoors.  

Good Luck!

Lots of good info here.

• SOLO or WMA over NOLS because certs last longer, although I hear people have had really good experiences with NOLS. Not to say SOLO and WMA can't provide that but I've almost exclusively heard people saying how great of an experience they've had with NOLS over any other company... Could just be because they're a larger company and will thus have more reputation, idk. Anyways I'll probably take the cheaper route. 

•Some recommendations to take rock guide course and skip SPI but honestly, I think it makes sense to not drop 3k on class and another 3k on the exam before I've even gone out with clients. I think that same message was echoed in a previous thread. It's not that I'm shaky on whether I want to guide or not but it seems smart to actually immerse myself in what the experience will be like first and accept the 1k deficit. I love people, I love teaching, I love climbing It's hard to look at this as a deficit as is...

•Recommendations to Contact guiding companies in areas that interest me to see if I can get hired without an SPI (probably doing grunt work) and maybe get my SPI cert in-house or payed for by them. -- This sounds like a great idea but how likely am I to find a company that is kind enough to do that for me? Am I really just grasping at straws in this situation (paying for SPI)? 

•Recommendations to Contact guiding companies in areas that interest me to see if I can get hired without an SPI (probably doing grunt work) and maybe get my SPI cert in-house or payed for by them. -- This sounds like a great idea but how likely am I to find a company that is kind enough to do that for me? Am I really just grasping at straws in this situation (paying for SPI)?

Yep, chances could be slim.  Of course if you don't contact them the chances are 0%. 

In the pre-Covid days there were lots of other employers that would pay for training.  You might think about jobs with them. Climbing gyms, schools, summer camps and scouting groups would often pay for all or some of the SPI course/exam.  Part of the reason the SPI certification exists is to serve these groups.  They'd often pay for WFR too.      

You can also "pay your dues/do your time" and do grunt work for an outfitter/guide company for a season.  You might be a driver, front desk person, handing out paddles and life preservers or some other non-climbing job but they will get to know you and what kind of employee you are and be more willing to set you up with a climbing job and training for the next season.  It's a way to gain experience and create opportunities.

Just some alternative paths for you to think about.

** I don't think the AMGA lets people challenge the exam anymore.

I’d take a look at the AMGA SOP that takes effect in January 2022. You might actually be more employable with your SPI than the RGC to many companies (especially in the Red). 

Definitely cannot challenge AMGA programs anymore.

They were just about done with challenging exams by the time I started limping through the program---2006/7 or so......

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

When did that change? And so what happens if you once had an SPI cert and let it expire, you're saying you have to take the course again? 

SPI program launched 2008, and I think the challenge option was gone by 2009 or 2010.

At present, if you have previously certified then even if your cert has expired, you can simply take and pass the exam to re-certifiy. However, you must take the course prior to taking your first exam. 

Great responses. 

I have had many conversations with folks who are interested in becoming guides. In addition to what has already been said, I would like to offer the following:

I often encourage new guides, especially if in their 20s, to work in the field of Outdoor Education for while if possible (Outward Bound, NOLS, SoCal schools, camps, etc.). These organizations annually provide an incredible amount of free (mostly, except for NOLS Instructor's Course) training that is often directly or closely in alignment with modern SPI curriculum and far beyond including educational skills, interpersonal skills, administrative skills, logistics, risk management, and more. They also provide huge amounts of feedback from which to grow as a professional and as a person. In OB and NOLS, instructors get tons of logged hours of group management in backcountry terrain, learning a variety of skills beyond just the technical management skills. Except for expedition guiding, guides rarely see injuries and medical issues that challenge a person's WFR skills; but in Outdoor Ed, it is almost daily, and SOAP notes, incident reports, evacuation procedures, and emergency protocols are practiced often. In Outdoor Ed, the clients are often younger and have lower expectations than adults paying top-dollar for guiding days. So, there is more room for mistakes and learning from those mistakes, as well as layers of mentorship from more senior instructors and course directors who are present in the field. Some of the AMGA course instructors and many AMGA guides were OB and NOLS instructors earlier in their career. OB or NOLS looks really good on resumes when applying for guide positions.

In addition, ski instructing in the winter, leading any kind of outdoor trip (including canoeing, rafting, hiking, backpacking, etc.) all support a guiding career. Leadership, teaching, risk management, medical, and self-care skills are directly transferable from these types of activities to guiding.

Personality. Personality is possibly just as important as any of the other skills. Very successful guides who have repeat clients and develop long-term relationships with clients are often kind, gentle, patient, friendly, tactful, responsible, and intelligent. And, there are places in guiding for those who don't fit these characteristics as well.

Finally, I can't express enough the importance of being an outstanding climber, skier, mountaineer, backpacker or whatever the particular focus of guiding is. Having expert level skills and resumes of accomplishments opens the opportunities far greater than being an average or even below average athlete. In the process of developing this resume, please be careful; I have seen many folks intent on becoming guides or outdoor educators push themselves beyond their abilities in order to develop their resumes (instead of just for fun and personal goals) and get hurt, or dead.

Bonne Chance!

Mike Lewis wrote:

Great responses. 

I have had many conversations with folks who are interested in becoming guides. In addition to what has already been said, I would like to offer the following:

I often encourage new guides, especially if in their 20s, to work in the field of Outdoor Education for while if possible (Outward Bound, NOLS, SoCal schools, camps, etc.). These organizations annually provide an incredible amount of free (mostly, except for NOLS Instructor's Course) training that is often directly or closely in alignment with modern SPI curriculum and far beyond including educational skills, interpersonal skills, administrative skills, logistics, risk management, and more. They also provide huge amounts of feedback from which to grow as a professional and as a person. In OB and NOLS, instructors get tons of logged hours of group management in backcountry terrain, learning a variety of skills beyond just the technical management skills. Except for expedition guiding, guides rarely see injuries and medical issues that challenge a person's WFR skills; but in Outdoor Ed, it is almost daily, and SOAP notes, incident reports, evacuation procedures, and emergency protocols are practiced often. In Outdoor Ed, the clients are often younger and have lower expectations than adults paying top-dollar for guiding days. So, there is more room for mistakes and learning from those mistakes, as well as layers of mentorship from more senior instructors and course directors who are present in the field. Some of the AMGA course instructors and many AMGA guides were OB and NOLS instructors earlier in their career. OB or NOLS looks really good on resumes when applying for guide positions.

In addition, ski instructing in the winter, leading any kind of outdoor trip (including canoeing, rafting, hiking, backpacking, etc.) all support a guiding career. Leadership, teaching, risk management, medical, and self-care skills are directly transferable from these types of activities to guiding.

Personality. Personality is possibly just as important as any of the other skills. Very successful guides who have repeat clients and develop long-term relationships with clients are often kind, gentle, patient, friendly, tactful, responsible, and intelligent. And, there are places in guiding for those who don't fit these characteristics as well.

Finally, I can't express enough the importance of being an outstanding climber, skier, mountaineer, backpacker or whatever the particular focus of guiding is. Having expert level skills and resumes of accomplishments opens the opportunities far greater than being an average or even below average athlete. In the process of developing this resume, please be careful; I have seen many folks intent on becoming guides or outdoor educators push themselves beyond their abilities in order to develop their resumes (instead of just for fun and personal goals) and get hurt, or dead.

Bonne Chance!

Hey man, 

I really appreciate the response. I'll seriously consider your recommendation to start with working for OB or NOLS or any organization of that type, It's clear how this could be useful despite that likely meaning that It would be another few seasons before I actually get to guide...  

Honestly speaking, I'm really bad at the whole self advocacy thing, mainly because I don't ever think of how something will look on a resume when I engage in activities, I kinda just do things because I enjoy doing them....so despite the myriad things I've done that may or may not be worth adding to a resume I wouldn't really know where to start separate wheat from chaff. What are some activities that you might recommend logging or keeping track of so maybe I can get better with this whole self advocacy thing? If its not asking too much, if it were you, what might you think back on to try to show your qualifications?

I'm not worried about the personality aspect, if there's one thing I can be certain of its that I definitely have the personality for the gig. I love people, I love creating relationships and seeing people grow and being able to be part of that process... I used to work in sales for 3 years and also as a behavior tech for a short time so I feel like I understand both sides of the coin there. 

I plan on continuing to climbing hard (for me) so hopefully enough time on rock will allow me that expert level in the foreseeable future. 

Cris,

bit of a late response here but I recommend looking into Southeast Mountain Guides at the Red. I worked with them briefly in the past and they were great about teaching me skills needed for the SPI exam and let me tag along when they took out clients. They run a via feratta there which provides full time employment when you wouldn't be out instructing on rock. It's a pretty sweet deal!

Jake Risch wrote:

Cris,

bit of a late response here but I recommend looking into Southeast Mountain Guides at the Red. I worked with them briefly in the past and they were great about teaching me skills needed for the SPI exam and let me tag along when they took out clients. They run a via feratta there which provides full time employment when you wouldn't be out instructing on rock. It's a pretty sweet deal!

Also they're in the Southern region forum advertising for job openings.

Thank you both. I'm taking my WFR within the next few months and would love to work there. I'll be sure to contact them.