Belaying from above when you're above the anchor

I'm trying to figure out of what is the safest way to belay from above. I've never done multi-pitch but on some single pitch climbs it's better for everyone to be on the top to move onto a different climb since the trail leads that way. However, I've always been sketched out by it because most you-tube videos show the anchor above them onto the wall for example.

What if the bolts are on a flat surface on the top of the rock where you have to top out. Or right on the edge and you have to climb over the top and the rope goes down. So how do you belay someone with an ATC if you are past the anchor or the anchor is built on the floor example and rope goes over the rock edge.

In those situations I would use the rope to extend the anchor down below the lip and do a standard top belay while hanging on the anchor. As your partner gets to the top you can keep them on belay as they top out over the lip. Have them use the bolts on top and belay you as you top out as well. This is what I have done in the past and it has worked quite well. I won't go into detail of how to do this because you should either be able to figure it out safely or seek qualified instruction from a guide.

Ben Schuldt wrote:

In those situations I would use the rope to extend the anchor down below the lip and do a standard top belay while hanging on the anchor. As your partner gets to the top you can keep them on belay as they top out over the lip. Have them use the bolts on top and belay you as you top out as well. This is what I have done in the past and it has worked quite well. I won't go into detail of how to do this because you should either be able to figure it out safely or seek qualified instruction from a guide.

If you extend the anchor down from below to belay them and then have them using the bolts to belay you imply you could have done what they would do and skip an extra step? Or am I missing something? 

I'm doing fairly short single pitches like 35-40ft.

Are there not chains or rings on these anchors? 

Is there not an easy walk off back to the base? 

Unless you have to climb the routes to get out of the place, you're trying to do something that's unnecessary. You either need to lower/rap back down off chains, or the last person to climb needs to deconstruct the anchor, drop the rope, and walk off. 

There are some good resources on "top managed belay" setups. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdD4MbcE1hs

Jev K wrote:

If you extend the anchor down from below to belay them and then have them using the bolts to belay you imply you could have done what they would do and skip an extra step?

Yeah don't do that. What you describe is a pretty standard scenario in a route that tops out, but I guess how to belay in this scenario is a lost art in the US now. You'd anchor yourself with the rope, extend it enough so you're sitting right at the edge of the cliff, and belay directly off your harness. Take care where the rope runs, if your climber falls, you don't want the rope to pinch you anywhere. Also orient the ATC so that the brake strand come out on top, because you will brake by pulling the brake strand up towards your chest. Some video helps, all shot by British guys for some reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0736ni7-dqU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puwfv3uzpjg&t=408

aikinijin has it exactly correct. And it is a lost art to most “climbers” today. All most know how to do is be on the ground. When you climb cliffs and need to move to another-upper cliff you do this. I find it best to sit on the anchors- tie in tight and belay with the rope coming up to you. Don’t let the rope run over your leg or you might “get pinched”..... try it before you need it. 

I typically belay of a plaquette device (ATC in guide mode) off the anchor. Similar to the above suggestions but you don't have to take the weight or get pinched because you are belaying the second off the anchor and not your harness. 

https://www.vdiffclimbing.com/guide-mode/#:~:text=Some%20ATC%2Dstyle%20belay%20devices,as%20the%20climber%20moves%20up.

Another option is a munter off the anchor.

Jev K wrote:

If you extend the anchor down from below to belay them and then have them using the bolts to belay you imply you could have done what they would do and skip an extra step? Or am I missing something? 

I'm doing fairly short single pitches like 35-40ft.

If I understand your scenario correctly, you're talking about anchor bolts that are set in the top of the cliff, basically in the ground and set back on the cliff away from the top edge of the climb. I've encountered that a few times. It's definitely not the classic scenario where your anchor is on the wall above your belay position.

I think the idea in the comment you were responding to above is that you extend the anchor over the edge and do a hanging belay to bring your partner up, they pass you, top out, attach themselves directly to the anchor bolts, and they do a brief, awkward, uncomfortable belay (either a hip belay or using their belay device on their harness) from there to bring you up the last few feet from your hanging position. The assumption is that you are unlikely to fall and your partner's belay is just a backup for safety that won't last long. You wouldn't bring your partner up from that position initially because it's awkward and hard on your body to do for a long time, and it hinders line of sight and communication except for the last few feet. The hanging belay is a better option to bring up your second, or the "sitting on the edge of the cliff" belay that akibujin described and posted videos about. Either works. There are pros and cons to each scenario so it's personal preference, depending on the terrain.

Whatever you do, don't actually belay from above the anchor. You always want to be in line anchor-belayer-climber (ABC). If you are above the anchor and your partner falls, you will get yanked down below the anchor, which is not great for you, possibly will mess with how you constructed your anchor, and your partner will fall farther.

Russ B wrote:

Are there not chains or rings on these anchors? 

Is there not an easy walk off back to the base? 

Unless you have to climb the routes to get out of the place, you're trying to do something that's unnecessary. You either need to lower/rap back down off chains, or the last person to climb needs to deconstruct the anchor, drop the rope, and walk off. 

I don't know about the OP's area, but around here there are a few multi-pitch climbs that have the final anchor bolts set flush into the bedrock (ground) after topping out. They are there to bring up the second and then you both walk off or transfer to a different, straighter rappel line to descend. I think this is similar to the scenario they're asking about. I don't know why the anchor bolts would be set that way on single-pitch, but it seems they sometimes are.

For example, this one (multi-pitch): https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/109792941/the-anchor-for-dance-hornpipes-where-you-shouldnt-is-set-for-a-trad-belay-after-

aikibujin wrote:

Yeah don't do that. What you describe is a pretty standard scenario in a route that tops out, but I guess how to belay in this scenario is a lost art in the US now. You'd anchor yourself with the rope, extend it enough so you're sitting right at the edge of the cliff, and belay directly off your harness. Take care where the rope runs, if your climber falls, you don't want the rope to pinch you anywhere. Also orient the ATC so that the brake strand come out on top, because you will brake by pulling the brake strand up towards your chest. Some video helps, all shot by British guys for some reason.

Your line that I bolded assumes the climber can get an anchor in above/behind them. I am reading OP's question as there is no higher anchor opportunity. So if there is anything remotely dicey between the anchor (let's assume they are bolts set for a lower-off i.e. a few feet below the lip) and flat walk-off terrain, there would be no safe way to top out OR descend to the bolts for the sort of extended/hanging belay position that most respondents in this thread seem to be recommending.

So - to the OP - you need to lead to the anchor or else have the skills, equipment, and location features to build a proper anchor above the climbing terrain.

Gunkiemike wrote:

Your line that I bolded assumes the climber can get an anchor in above/behind them.

I'm not assuming anything. It was part of the question:

Jev K wrote:

What if the bolts are on a flat surface on the top of the rock where you have to top out. Or right on the edge and you have to climb over the top and the rope goes down. So how do you belay someone with an ATC if you are past the anchor or the anchor is built on the floor example and rope goes over the rock edge.

The other part of the question was addressed by locker, ie. don't climb above the anchor. I addressed the question "what if the bolts are on flat surface, on top of the rock, on the floor, and rope goes over the edge".

Ackley The Improved wrote:

Another option is a munter off the anchor.

+1

Sit by the anchor, tied in, but belay off the anchor with a Munter hitch. Your legs could be dangling and you can watch the second climb but you won't be pulled off the edge.

aikibujin wrote:

I'm not assuming anything. It was part of the question:

The other part of the question was addressed by locker, ie. don't climb above the anchor. I addressed the question "what if the bolts are on flat surface, on top of the rock, on the floor, and rope goes over the edge".

Ah yes, I see that now. Sorry for my error.

I focused on OP's first situation: anchor (bolts?) out of reach below. I think I failed to consider the second case because it's such a non-problem (as several folks including you pointed out).

Thanks for all the comments so far. 

Russ, there are no chains or rings on these anchors. Techincally I can add two quick-links and rappell off of them, right? But usually, it's better to just pull the rope up and continue on our way to another climb because cleaning and lowering would mean we would have to scramble back up. We're mainly setting up TR's as some of these climbs are not to lead. 

Aikibukin, with your videos this is the closest to what I was trying to get at.

Guy Keesee, exactly, it's to move to another-upper cliff. Sometimes the walk around isn't bad but I want to know the skill for the future. 

I don't have any of my own pictures but I found some off the internet of the exact climbs I was talking about.

 Climb 1) 

I usually set up a quad on those two bolts. That guy had a extended slings going from one bolt there and another on the other side (kind of sharp). I just use the two that you see. It goes off to the left where it's not a rough edge and just straight down the left. That top out is just that teeny ledge and if you would stand there the anchor would be unweighted. The other side is just straight down like 8 feet. My buddy was like do you want to belay me up and I denied it cause I had no idea how I would comfortably sit or position myself on that tiny ledge as it's already sketchy to clip in an anchor standing on the other side and then it's unweighted if you want to rappel down the first few steps. 

Another situation 2)

The top out is completely flat and about 2 meters away from the edge of the climb. So if you stand where the anchors are you cannot see anything what is going on. There are more climbs if you walk off the top which is why it'd be cool to get everyone up there. What would be the best way to belay from this area? Belaying direct off the anchor would mean you can't see your climber which I think is sketch.

it used to be standard issue to rig your top anchor so that you could sit with you feet dangling off the top of the cliff while belaying off your harness or hip.   I still do this when applicable.. 

aikibujin wrote:

Yeah don't do that. What you describe is a pretty standard scenario in a route that tops out, but I guess how to belay in this scenario is a lost art in the US now. You'd anchor yourself with the rope, extend it enough so you're sitting right at the edge of the cliff, and belay directly off your harness. Take care where the rope runs, if your climber falls, you don't want the rope to pinch you anywhere. Also orient the ATC so that the brake strand come out on top, because you will brake by pulling the brake strand up towards your chest. Some video helps, all shot by British guys for some reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0736ni7-dqU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puwfv3uzpjg&t=408

Dumb question, if you were belaying your second up like this but with a grigri off your harness, should you flip that upside down too?