Quickdraw are worthlessish right?

Some alpine draws to extend placements and do other things with maybe. Some double length runners to really extend some pro in certain spots. And then a bunch of just nonlocking carabiners for nuts or bolts or ice screws right? Quickdraws are for sport climbing so you can grab a draw if needed and obviously they provide some extensibility. Who uses quickdraws for trad and why unless you're doing redpoint trad where each nut is pre clipped to a draw or something. What disadvantages are their to just using 1 nonlocker for nuts and bolts?

Draws keep your rack cleaner - less slings to catch on cam triggers, etc.
Single biners on bolts work ok but without the draw to absorb rope movement it is more likely to accidentally unclip from the bolt, end up hanging sideways in a weak orientation, or dislodge the nut from its slot. Also, aside from indian creek and devils tower, it's a rare climb that is so perfectly straight that single biners will not create rope drag.
Ice almost always has enough surface texture and screws are usually placed in indentations so that without draws your rope would get dragged over all kinds of surfaces and eventually cause huge  rope drag even on ice.
Finally, if you're like me and tend to get in over your head, a single biner is way harder to pull on than a draw!

it's personal preference. They're not totally worthless for trad, but alpine draws are generally more versatile and useful. They are extendable, reduce walking bc they're less rigid, and can be used to sling horns or other features. Some quickdraws that have the skinnier dogbone work well for trad as they're lighter and less bulky than normal, beefy sport draws. And yes, I have totally used normal draws preloaded onto nuts/cams for a redpoint. It's very convenient for efficient clipping when you're redlining. Also I wouldn't generally put just a non-locking biner on a nut, you normally want to extend it with a draw so it doesn't walk. Also- you definitely don't want to just use a nonlocker on bolts bc they can get loaded in weird ways causing the carabiner to potentially break. And it would just be a pain to clip the bolt, rotate the biner so its oriented correctly, and then clip it. A draw, regular or alpine, is much better suited for this

I generally carry about 6 short draws and 6 alpine draws when trad leading. It has to be a very short, very straight crack for me to clip the rope into the racking biner of a C4. I would never clip into a wired stopper with a single biner; too likely to pull it out. I never carry double runners (4 footers) any more, it's very rare that I want to extend a piece that much and they are too short to build anchors with. I have thin draws for trad and a set of beefy medium Petzl's for sport. I am also a fan of the extendable sling on WC Friends, I don't use it often but it does come in handy.

Keeping in mind this is posted in the Trad forum, my response relates to trad.

IMO the relevant differences between a quickdraw and an alpine draw are stiffness and length (har har--now moving on...). Stiffness matters because a stiff quickdraw transfers the motion of the rope to the gear more. You're not worried about that with bolts, but it's quite easy for nuts to get pulled in the wrong direction, or cams to walk. Length matters because a long alpine draw will reduce drag more, and also transfer motion from the rope less.

"Worthless" is a strong word, though. A quickdraw is often better than no extension at all, so if you're short on alpine draws, I'd absolutely bring quickdraws rather than bringing nothing. And there are some rare-ish cases where a stiff quickdraw might keep the rope better-positioned like if there's a sharp flake, or if the carabiner would be bent over an edge with a longer extension. Quickdraws are also more convenient and less bulky. And some quickdraws are longer or floppier--those generally would be annoying for sport, but would make them better than other quickdraws for trad.

I personally don't carry quickdraws for trad where I am because routes tend to meander more than most places, so rope drag can be unforgiving of shorter extensions. In places with a lot of perfectly straight splitters, you could probably get away with nothing but quickdraws. As with most things in trad, there's a rule of thumb, but enough exceptions that you still have to use your brain in your specific situation.

Nick Battaglia wrote: What disadvantages are their to just using 1 nonlocker for nuts and bolts?

Using a single biner on a bolt will frequently result in heavy rope drag, and as mentioned above, it can increase the likelihood of unclipping.

I don't like putting a single biner on a nut, because it's a lot more likely to dislodge the nut with upward pull. I always throw an alpine draw on it, sometimes extended if it's a loose downward-only placement.

I do like quickdraws for ice climbing, the alpine draws tend to freeze up to the point where it's rigid and you can't extend them anyway (depends on temperature).

Easy, wandering trad - yes, worthless.

Harder, steeper trad - half quickdraws, half alpine draws.

Alpine - half alpine sewn draws, half alpine tied nylon draws.

The only times i carry regular draws, are on single pitch trad lines, with super specific gear beta. Often times i’ll have a specific RP/nut loaded with a draw ready to go.

I use a mix of quick-draws and alpine draws for trad climbing.    Quick draws are lighter and less bulky and often the extension need for a piece of gear is closer to a quick draw's length rather than an alpine draw's length.   I buy slight longer than the typical quick draw length made of spectra which are not stiff.  I usually carry about 10 quick draws and 6-8 alpine draws.

Sport QDs are also nice for stray bolts in trad routes that are in non-protect-able areas, or if you run across a stray piton... I like keeping a QD on my harness for backing up my anchor on long rap routes too. Fast, easy and simple. Plus it can easily secure your pack if you need to rummage deep at a belay. But... as stated above, an alpine will do all the above too, and more. 

I use QDs all time time trad climbing... especially for tricams in routes that are not wandering much...

Quickdraws are lighter and way less fiddly than alpine draws.  I use a mix of alpine draws and quick draws when trad climbing and on certain alpine routes. 

Nick Battaglia wrote: Who uses quickdraws for trad and why unless you're doing redpoint trad where each nut is pre clipped to a draw or something. What disadvantages are their to just using 1 nonlocker for nuts and bolts?

I use 'em.  Usually half qd's and half alpine draws.  6 and 6.  BD Oz draws.  They're light and don't take up as much space.  I might toss in a standard draw or two if I think the pitch might be hard enough that I (or my partner ) could A0 in a place or two if its more important to move quickly and I need more nylon to pull  on.

Quick for clipping nuts and I usually extend most of my cam placements with a draw so they don't "walk".  Also, they allow the rope to run much smoother with less friction.  Less futzy than an alpine draw.  Lower bulk on my harness.  Or, lower bulk on a shoulder sling.

I always seem to run out of my 10 alpines on long pitches. I don't always extend them, so I added some lightweight QDs to my trad rack. Separate from my sport draws. Barely notice the weight, appreciate the lack of drag. 

Dude! You got a reply from Topher Donahue! Simply ignore everyone else and do what he says. Topher is a trad zen master of the highest order.

Adam Brink wrote: Dude! You got a reply from Topher Donahue! Simply ignore everyone else and do what he says. Topher is a trad zen master of the highest order.

Oh wow the author of advanced rock climbing nothing to sneeze at huh! Thanks TD.

GO GO TOPHER!