Chop the bolt ladder

Jon LostVegan wrote: Makes me laugh... You can only enjoy climbing the way I do! You can’t enjoy climbing the way you like it! My way is superior because I can justify that to myself.

I’m gonna go nail it!!! Just to watch you cringe. Some of those “jams” are from pin scars you idiot! Keep pushin it and people will  push back. 

Stay-off my crack and go ruin another crack! WtF?!?! Moonlight was put up as an aid climb. So, should those of us that enjoy aiding start posting how free climbers should stay off our aid climbs? Get over yourself. Maybe an approach like... let’s work to make desert climbs more sustainable for everyone. Then push for education.
Because I have a feeling that many aid climbers are better at preserving the natural landscape than free climbers. Look at the Moab/Indian creek area. It’s a glorified sport-crag now. Zero f&$ks given about the criptobiotic soul. Or the fragile plants or their ecosystems in the desert.

Hate to tell you this... but moonlight will get destroyed by the mere presence of humans, regardless of the style they use to ascend.

While I get the fix and fire method... that was called cheating when I learned to climb. And is definetly poor style.

Happy NAILING!

Step away from the crack pipe bro and start making sense.

All climbing should aim towards minimal impact and nailing is the most impact creating activity we climbers do leading to the most rapid rock scarring. An established rock climb is a public resource we share and all have the same obligation to not climb "however they want" but instead to minimize their impact or stay off.

This debate has gone on for 50 years and the answer is always the same: Up your STANDARDS and stop abusing a route that can be done in a style with less impact, or go find a first ascent you can do however you like.

Wherever the route is everyone has the responsibility to step up their game.

I aided Moonlight yesterday. I know I wasn’t supposed to have fun because people on the internet say “it’s not a good aid route,” but I had a blast. No fixed lines. No hauling. No need for bounce testing or hooks. Definitely no need for nailing, which is good because I don’t own a hammer. We short fixed every pitch and got to the top in less than 8 hours.

I do not believe that my style yesterday impacted the rock more than free climbing. The whole grand dihedral pitch is caked in chalk, a testament to the free traffic. The wear reminded me of Way Rambo or Generic Crack... routes that have been worn down by climbers falling or taking, shuffling and trying hard.

This route is beautiful and certainly a treasure. It’s not unreasonable as a community to make style suggestions to slow deterioration, but shaming aid climbers into staying off the route is not going to stop the wear. *Climbers* are changing the route.

All climbers have a right to the route. Let’s share and play nice. 

Chop all the bolts including the free variation. The 11c traverse pitch is protectable with a red C4 and those bolts are unnecessary and take away from the aesthetic of the climb. If you're trying to free the whole wall that pitch should be trivial. 

Is moonlight 2s yet? lmk

Cesar Cardenas wrote: Hey, Moonlight free is one of my ultimate climbing goals (to redpoint it). I'm onsighting 5.10+ Joshua Tree & Mt Woodson cracks and redpointing 5.11 with 2-3 tries and following 5.11+

You seem pretty well versed with the route (or at least I'm assuming you are), would you say its time to give it a try for the first time?

I know its a shot in the dark asking you to approximate it--but honestly I wasn't going to try until I sent Equinox clean in JT, but now I see you saying climbng 5.11 in the creek being good to go for 90% I'm thinking I might have overhyped MB difficulty. Thoughts?

You’re climbing single-pitch .10s and .11s and you wanna know if you should get on a .12+ big wall?

Cesar Cardenas wrote:

Lmao, I guess I did leave out that I'm pretty well verse in multipitches up to about 12 pitches and know how to move efficiently and effectively hahahaha :) 

I've done this up to about 5.10d, but I'm really excited to finally hop on 5.11s multis this season like Levittation 29, Positive Vibrations, and another personal milestone for me: The Vampire in Tahquitz :)

That information doesn't really change anything. You haven't done a single pitch of 5.12, but you want to get on a route with six 5.12 pitches in a row. That makes no sense. 

Cesar Cardenas wrote: Whats your take on that opinion?

I gotta wake my ass up at 6am everyday this week. Yeah, I’m doing the drywall at the new McDonald’s.

My comment is solely directed at AL for his first post. GOOD ON YOU FOR PITCHING THE IDEA FIRST!!!! Lots of people act, and then talk. You have the sequence correct: TALK, and then ACT. Crazy perfect way to do it. It may be a few years of talking before it happens, but in the end, without starting a destructive bolt war, you will easily recognize that it was the very best way for this process to happen.

THANK YOU!!!!! 

Your aid cams are wearing out the route, therefore your french free/one-hang/multiple redpoint cam placements will only be allowed from here on out.

Signed,

5.12+ climber

The general climbing public stopped hammering pitons on The Shield route on El Cap because the route becamed hideously scarred. Continuing to nail it became unsustainable. Now, most parties hammer very few pitons and a lot of parties do it totally clean. The method of climbing the Shield now is far more sustainable.

Every single aid placement damages Moonlight.

200 aid moves? 200 points of damage.  A half dozen aid ascents, 1200 points of damage.

If a free party hangs or falls a dozen times. A half dozen ascents, 72 points of damage.

Aid climbing Moonlight is unsustainable. 

Just psyched to see this thread come back to life. Maybe quarantine will be entertaining after-all

Cesar Cardenas wrote: Hey, Moonlight free is one of my ultimate climbing goals (to redpoint it). I'm onsighting 5.10+ Joshua Tree & Mt Woodson cracks and redpointing 5.11 with 2-3 tries and following 5.11+

You seem pretty well versed with the route (or at least I'm assuming you are), would you say its time to give it a try for the first time?

I know its a shot in the dark asking you to approximate it--but honestly I wasn't going to try until I sent Equinox clean in JT, but now I see you saying climbng 5.11 in the creek being good to go for 90% I'm thinking I might have overhyped MB difficulty. Thoughts?

Climb equinox first and you’ll have a good shot at sending. Climb it now and you’ll certainly have to aid a few sections. To clarify, if you’re onsighting 11+/12- in Indian creek then you stand a good chance of free climbing all but the most difficult 30 feet of the route.

Be responsible. Don’t take repeated whippers. French free if/when you need to. 
Or wait a while. It’s very possible to onsight this route if you’re onsighting solid 512 in the creek. Which doesn’t take as long to achieve as most people think. 

 As an aside, should folks that repeatedly climb MB, even free,  consider that they've had their turn and  leave it for others?  Any ascent has cumulative impacts, I'd think.

In the two days before Jordan and I climbed it last year there were 5 parties on it and the next day 4. The day we went we had it all to ourselves.
If you’ve climbed it before I can’t see any good reason to wade into a cluster of multiple parties. 

Mark Hudon wrote: The general climbing public stopped hammering pitons on The Shield route on El Cap because the route becamed hideously scarred. Continuing to nail it became unsustainable. Now, most parties hammer very few pitons and a lot of parties do it totally clean. The method of climbing the Shield now is far more sustainable.

Every single aid placement damages Moonlight.

200 aid moves? 200 points of damage.  A half dozen aid ascents, 1200 points of damage.

If a free party hangs or falls a dozen times. A half dozen ascents, 72 points of damage.

Aid climbing Moonlight is unsustainable. 

Moonlight is doing fine after 50 years.  Even with the current level of gear and probable increase of climber numbers, Moonlight will continue to do just fine.

Leave the route alone or close to what the FA and FFA established.

K Weber wrote:

Moonlight is doing fine after 50 years.  Even with the current level of gear and probable increase of climber numbers, Moonlight will continue to do just fine.

Leave the route alone or close to what the FA and FFA established.

Dave Bloom told me when he freed the route he used 3 green C3’s. The first time I tried it, you needed one green C3. When I sent it 3 years later I needed nothing smaller than a red C3. It’s not doing fine. It’s getting beat up. I spent some time on space shot last year and, in 3 days, I witnessed 10 parties on moonlight. All aid climbing. All dragging a wall kit. On my last few days in the park I watched a party aid climb thru 2 days of rain rather than rappel. It’s a big impact. There are other beginner aid routes. I’m not really saying chop the ladder. It gets used to climb another proper aid route. It was just click bait. (Reference original post). People should just consider their approach with more thought and if they want to learn to aid climb there are routes that are equally suitable where you’ll learn much more about desert aid climbing.