Dumb beginner question about backup knots
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I followed a slightly less than vertical aid pitch and attached backup knots to my harness about every 20 feet. I found it difficult to push the bottom ascender up, I think because of the lack of weight on the bottom of the rope. Do I need to tie less knots or is there an ascender technique I'm not getting? Open the ascender mechanism more with my thumb? |
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Yeah right after you tie a knot you'll have to keep the cam partially open with your thumb to slide it up without bringing the rope. Practice makes it less awkward. |
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That sounds like it was slow-going. Not knowing more, where, what, the weather conditions etc. |
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I usually tie just one backup knot at the start of the pitch (clipped to my harness). |
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Good points. I was taking an ascender off to clean gear a lot, and going by what chris mac's big wall book says. In the real world how far between knots do most people do? |
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I usually only take the top ascender off to pass/clean gear, and let slack through the lower with the thumb catch if needed.. |
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> In the real world how far between knots do most people do? |
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Katarina Owens wrote: Do I need to tie less knots?Depends upon the terrain to decide about less or more knots. Dealing with the lack of weight below the lower ascender after tying a backup knot is just part of the game. Yes. When there's less weight on the rope hanging below you, you'll sometimes need to hold the rope below the ascender as well as you thumb the cam open to move the jug up smoothly. Over time, you learn how to angle the ascender along with thumbing the cam open without having to hold/weight the rope below it when you first moving off the anchor or have just tied a backup knot. Katarina Owens wrote:Only take the ascender off to clean a piece if you can't maneuver the angle and tension of the rope to get it unclipped first. Often swinging a bit to the left of right will allow you to unclip the rope at the apex of the swing, saving time. Length between knots is situational. If the loops can get caught on flakes and in cracks, shorter loops can help or using a rope bag. If you're about to do something very traversing set a "knot" by adding your grigri in order to pay out rope as your lower out, etc. |
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kevin deweese wrote: Depends upon the terrain to decide about less or more knots. Dealing with the lack of weight below the lower ascender after tying a backup knot is just part of the game. Thnx Kev! 'n I was waiting for another master of the game - This Master - to join in. I really hope that, when climbing with another climber who is also "newer" to all the rigors of aid-climbing. That you get onto steep stuff very early if not first.The reasons for hopping on a steeper terrain to learn, is the way that gravity sucks, it gets you immersed in the work right from the jump... There is no way or time to take a stance; you start out hanging, dangling above gear, and move up on aid, re-assuring your unconscious mind that the gear works. Wall climbing is total immersion in the arcane pursuit of combining all the skills that make up climbing & using every type & trick to gain passage to the heights. There is nothing more bitter than a broken, broke, broke-down one-time wall Rhat who's age and frailties having finally conspired to ground them. Caught up with the needs of life, the fitness escapes long before the drive to climb dies, Saying that; go get after it! look up & down, enjoy the ride, go those extra miles while you can and go get more than just some.... |
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Use a gri |
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Brandon Adams wrote: Use a gri Using a grigri doesn't help with the ascender issue unfortunately as once you pull slack through the gri the lack of weight on the rope comes back exactly like tying off a backup knot. I've taught a bunch of people to aid and have found that when tying backup knots climbers will wait longer but with a grigri they pull the slack through more often. |
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+1 for using a grigri. |
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Chris H wrote: https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111342878/jugging-two-ascenders-vs-ascender-and-grigri I've tried this method and suggested it to others in the past. I no longer suggest it. Does it work? Yes. Is it the best or the most efficient or the easiest or the anythingest? No. Using one ladder instead of two on the upper ascender is ridiculous in terms of concentrating effort into one leg instead of two.Take a short fall onto a stiff daisy? How does this happen when jugging/cleaning? Who doesn't own a second ladder or ascender and is legitimately trying to climb aid or bigwall? It literally takes 10 seconds to put a grigri on the line if it's not always there so the benefit of running the gri instead of a second ascender. It doesn't slow you down at all? Pulling the rope upwards through the grigri will very quickly become tiring causing more resting which is slower, if you setup the 2/1 redirect you can avoid that issue but then you're taking more time to cycle through the system, additionally pushing the top ascender up requires the pushing of the rope wight below it which causes you to tie backup knots more often, so slower. A grigri is no more secure than a second ascender. Short-fixing with a grigri and single ascender? what are you even talking about? Leading and following are completely different systems This is a horrible method for anything less than vertical. Also can be difficult with fixed lines. This method has always felt like something that is beneficial for people that need to get up a short section of rope but for someone actually doing a wall, though the method may work, it's far from the best method available. |
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Thanks for all the replies! |
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Not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone run with the microtrax rather than a back up knot? |
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Cheat mode if you're not yet super fluent with the thumb trigger: don't tie the knot close to the bottom ascender. Give it a little slack and you've got free "weight". |
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I run a Microtrax/Spoc under my ascenders. No need to take it off except when resetting at belays |
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I followed some aid last weekend and found it way easier tying fewer knots and opening the bottom ascenders catch with my thumb to push it up. Still not smooth but I need more practice |
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Seems like a lot of complaining about something that happens multiple times during every aid pitch that you follow. |
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Katarina Owens wrote: I followed some aid last weekend and found it way easier tying fewer knots and opening the bottom ascenders catch with my thumb to push it up. Still not smooth but I need more practice Awesome! Keep at it. It never gets easy but it does get easier or at least smoother. |
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David Coley wrote: Not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone run with the microtrax rather than a back up knot? It works really well if you are just going up a fixed line or cleaning a dead vertical pitch. If you have to do any lowering out it's a major pain. |