Crag with the most accurate grades in your local climbing area?

climber pat wrote:

So true.  In my local area old 5.7 are called 5.9: 5.8 are being regrading 5.10.  and by old I mean these routes have been around since the early 1970s or earlier put up wearing boots and pitons.

Are you talking about the Organs and the Doña Anas? Which routes specifically? I am not aware of any wholesale upgrading, and I started climbing there in ‘89. 

J T wrote:

RRG: soft grades

NRG: not soft grades

Where should I go in NRG where I will experience the most accurate Sport grades for the area? I'm going at some point this year, and probably split time between sport and trad, but I have a better sport grade reference.

I used to think Potrero Chico routes were soft. They are soft, right?

Seriously, I recommended some routes there to friends and they found them pretty stout. But that was 1999 me talking about them. Shit be relative, you know? 

J T wrote:

RRG: soft grades

NRG: not soft grades

And this must be why the Red is more popular

Farzin wrote: Any crag that use the most digits and scientific notation would be the most accurate.

Wouldn't that be the most precise, but not necessarily accurate?

I usually just figure anything over 5.9 is hard and not fun, unless it's Vedauwoo - then everything is hard.  Maybe Voo has accurate grades?

I have a suspicion for why the red has a reputation for being soft. I think people go to the gorge and one hang the hardest route they ever been on and they think there soooo close to sending then leave empty handed, but they come back to Colorado and go “ it’s so soft in the red I one hung Jesus wept then got on flour power and did all the moves my first go, the grades are so soft.” Or better yet the, classic “ bro I was so close to onsighting chainsaw, I fell right at the anchor, I’ve never came close to onsighting 12a, must be soft.” How ever all of these spraylords have one thing in common NOBODY SENDS, and people don’t seem to realize that the hard part of sending in the gorge is going from a one hang to a red point, getting a one hang or doing all the moves your first time up a route is the easy part here. You have no right to an opinion calling the gorge soft if you don’t send. So now all of you get to tell me why I’m wrong, and what routes you shat on in the gorge and why it’s sooo easy.  Flame on 

Jack Sparrow wrote: I have a suspicion for why the red has a reputation for being soft. I think people go to the gorge and one hang the hardest route they ever been on and they think there soooo close to sending then leave empty handed, but they come back to Colorado and go “ it’s so soft in the red I one hung Jesus wept then got on flour power and did all the moves my first go, the grades are so soft.” Or better yet the, classic “ bro I was so close to onsighting chainsaw, I fell right at the anchor, I’ve never came close to onsighting 12a, must be soft.” How ever all of these spraylords have one thing in common NOBODY SENDS, and people don’t seem to realize that the hard part of sending in the gorge is going from a one hang to a red point, getting a one hang or doing all the moves your first time up a route is the easy part here. You have no right to an opinion calling the gorge soft if you don’t send. So now all of you get to tell me why I’m wrong, and what routes you shat on in the gorge and why it’s sooo easy.  Flame on 

I've heard similar theories a few times and agree. There's PLENTY of sandbagged routes/crags in the Red, and undeniably soft routes/crags as well (Stary Night 12a is way easier than Gold Rush 11d- same crag). I'd say Stary Night is an ego grade that will never be down graded, becasue it's so many people's first 12a.

I'm hoping that more people from different areas can contribute to this thread so we can confirm your theory when traveling to new places.

the schmuck wrote:

Are you talking about the Organs and the Doña Anas? Which routes specifically? I am not aware of any wholesale upgrading, and I started climbing there in ‘89. 

Organs and piecemeal.  I have notice hand jive, gertch's folley, the jewel, nw ridge of citedal, something on lesser spire.  I am mostly noticing comments on Facebook.  Most things are getting about 1/2 to a whole number grade.  The comments usually have something to do with route finding issues and scared of the run out also upping the grade.  Some off the beaten path climbs I climbed in the 80s are rated much harder than I remember but i have not redone them to get a reread.

Ma Ja wrote:

I've heard similar theories a few times and agree. There's PLENTY of sandbagged routes/crags in the Red, and undeniably soft routes/crags as well (Stary Night 12a is way easier than Gold Rush 11d- same crag). I'd say Stary Night is an ego grade that will never be down graded, becasue it's so many people's first 12a.

I'm hoping that more people from different areas can contribute to this thread so we can confirm your theory when traveling to new places.

I totally agree. The Reds difficulty lies in redpointing not in the individual moves. That said, I actually don’t think many areas are sandbagged. Take j tree for example, many a traveling climber has gotten spanked there but if you spend enough time getting used to the style and rock the grades will feel accurate. Every place has soft and hard grades. The new is not sandbagged, but if you’re used to pulling overhanging pockets in the red you’re probably in for a surprise of hard crimpy boulders and difficult to read sequences. Get it right and it feels accurate. Gunks? Well maybe it’s sandbagged but a slab trad climber goes there and yeah, you’re getting pumped and gonna be having a hard time. I’d like to go back there at some point and find out if it’s really sandbagged or not, I’m guessing not though..

Ma Ja wrote:

I've heard similar theories a few times and agree. There's PLENTY of sandbagged routes/crags in the Red, and undeniably soft routes/crags as well (Stary Night 12a is way easier than Gold Rush 11d- same crag). I'd say Stary Night is an ego grade that will never be down graded, becasue it's so many people's first 12a.

I'm hoping that more people from different areas can contribute to this thread so we can confirm your theory when traveling to new places.

I've climbed quite a bit at the Red and all over the country, and I never thought the Red was systematically soft. Muir Valley can be, but try climbing some of the Porter Jarrard routes in the north gorge and tell me those are soft. Also, quite a bit of the trad in the north gorge is quite stout. 

Salamanizer suchoski wrote:Sandbagged; Lassen Ntl Park, Needles, anything Johnny Woodward.

Can't wait to get out to Lassen!

climber pat wrote:

Organs and piecemeal.  I have notice hand jive, gertch's folley, the jewel, nw ridge of citedal, something on lesser spire.  I am mostly noticing comments on Facebook.  Most things are getting about 1/2 to a whole number grade.  The comments usually have something to do with route finding issues and scared of the run out also upping the grade.  Some off the beaten path climbs I climbed in the 80s are rated much harder than I remember but i have not redone them to get a reread.

Ah, that makes sense. I don’t do Facebook. 

Jack Sparrow wrote: I have a suspicion for why the red has a reputation for being soft. 

I agree. Everybody always says the Red is soft but I think it's actually a little stiff for the grade in my opinion. I always seem to climb poorly there. It's definitely my anti-style and I climb a lot harder on vertical limestone. If you're used to thuggy climbing it will probably feel soft for the grade and if you're used to vertical crimpy climbing it will feel hard for the grade.

Jack Sparrow wrote: I have a suspicion for why the red has a reputation for being soft. I think people go to the gorge and one hang the hardest route they ever been on and they think there soooo close to sending then leave empty handed, but they come back to Colorado and go “ it’s so soft in the red I one hung Jesus wept then got on flour power and did all the moves my first go, the grades are so soft.” Or better yet the, classic “ bro I was so close to onsighting chainsaw, I fell right at the anchor, I’ve never came close to onsighting 12a, must be soft.” How ever all of these spraylords have one thing in common NOBODY SENDS, and people don’t seem to realize that the hard part of sending in the gorge is going from a one hang to a red point, getting a one hang or doing all the moves your first time up a route is the easy part here. You have no right to an opinion calling the gorge soft if you don’t send. So now all of you get to tell me why I’m wrong, and what routes you shat on in the gorge and why it’s sooo easy.  Flame on 

No, the RRG is soft because it is an outdoor gym where you can send 12's with no technique whatsoever. It has technical, hard routes, but the vast majority of the Red is categorized as overhung jug hauls which any gym rat should be able to do....those individuals who say that it is hard are usually the type who do not climb steep routes often, therefore struggle with the pump. 

I think we are saying the same thing for the most part, but 1-hanging a 13a in the RRG is significantly less of an accomplishment than 1-hanging a 13a in the NRG, Smith, Rifle, etc....which is why I would say it's soft. 

J T wrote:

No, the RRG is soft because it is an outdoor gym where you can send 12's with no technique whatsoever. It has technical, hard routes, but the vast majority of the Red is categorized as overhung jug hauls which any gym rat should be able to do....those individuals who say that it is hard are usually the type who do not climb steep routes often, therefore struggle with the pump. 

I think we are saying the same thing for the most part, but 1-hanging a 13a in the RRG is significantly less of an accomplishment than 1-hanging a 13a in the NRG, Smith, Rifle, etc....which is why I would say it's soft. 

I agree with you, I think we’re making the same point just looking at it from different perspectives. I’m coming from a technical climbing background so the red has always been more difficult for me. If your a gym rat you will definitely climb better there. However if you are a good technical climber the “ sandbags of the gorge” will be a walk in the park, Super slab, soul ram, the gift, samurai. 

Tahquitz is my local climbing area AND the most accurate by definition. So there. Now lets go struggle up a 5.9!

Jack Sparrow wrote: I have a suspicion for why the red has a reputation for being soft. I think people go to the gorge and one hang the hardest route they ever been on and they think there soooo close to sending then leave empty handed, but they come back to Colorado and go “ it’s so soft in the red I one hung Jesus wept then got on flour power and did all the moves my first go, the grades are so soft.” Or better yet the, classic “ bro I was so close to onsighting chainsaw, I fell right at the anchor, I’ve never came close to onsighting 12a, must be soft.” How ever all of these spraylords have one thing in common NOBODY SENDS, and people don’t seem to realize that the hard part of sending in the gorge is going from a one hang to a red point, getting a one hang or doing all the moves your first time up a route is the easy part here. You have no right to an opinion calling the gorge soft if you don’t send. So now all of you get to tell me why I’m wrong, and what routes you shat on in the gorge and why it’s sooo easy.  Flame on 

Funny, I just had this conversation with couple visiting Coloradians late last fall. They had heard that the Red was soft, and came in with high hopes, then kept adjusting their expectations down, and down, as they fell off the 12+'s, and then fell off 12-'s. and then tried, and started falling on 11's. They weren't the spraylord variety, so instead of saying how soft the Red was, their reaction was, "yeah, sure, the moves are easy one at a time, but Oh boy, putting them all together... "

Still, climbing at the Red is very straightforward, and so is training for it. Once you get that overhanging endurance, it really does feel soft, and so do all other areas where the overall difficulty of climbs comes from managing the pump on overhang, rather than from individual moves.

I had a funny experience in Spain last year. On my first day, we ran into couple climbers from Smith Rock. They were hangdogging this 12a, and talking about how hard it was. I was complaining about the difficulty or a nearby 5.11. We bonded over our complaining, and traded routes. The route they had trouble with was nothing but large pockets and finger buckets on overhanging wall, interspersed with practically-hands-free rests, and I flashed it easily, despite struggling on that 5.11. Meanwhile, they easily stepped their way up the techy 11, carrying a pleasant conversation the entire time...  needless to say, we disagreed about the relative difficulty of those two routes.

 

The threads about accurate/soft/sandbagged routes/areas always make me laugh. For me personally the variability within any given area is so large, it drowns out the variability between areas.

Take Ma Ja's example of soft/sandbagged routes at the same crag. Starry Night is "soft" 12a, Gold Rush is "sandbagged" 11d. The majority/consensus may even agree with him. But my personal experience:
Gold Rush: 2nd go send in summer heat of 2012, when I had only one 12b, and a handful of 12a's under my belt. Thought it felt relatively easy.
Starry Night: multi-day and 6+ attempts before sending in 2017, at the time when I had already sent couple 12c's and flashed 12b, and many 12a's.

Do I know why it felt harder for me? Yes. Some of it is due to my relative strengths/weaknesses, and some has to do with basic geometry. Does my opinion mater to anyone? Nope.

Jack Sparrow wrote:

I agree with you, I think we’re making the same point just looking at it from different perspectives. I’m coming from a technical climbing background so the red has always been more difficult for me. If your a gym rat you will definitely climb better there. However if you are a good technical climber the “ sandbags of the gorge” will be a walk in the park, Super slab, soul ram, the gift, samurai. 

Agreed, I also think it gets it's soft reputation from being very easy to onsight at/near your limit (so long as you have decent endurance). Whereas at the NRG, in my experience, some routes feel very sandbagged until the beta is dialed. That's why I said 1-hanging a 13a in the RRG is less of an accomplishment, in my eyes, than 1-hanging a 13a in the NRG.

Lena chita wrote:

Funny, I just had this conversation with couple visiting Coloradians late last fall. They had heard that the Red was soft, and came in with high hopes, then kept adjusting their expectations down, and down, as they fell off the 12+'s, and then fell off 12-'s. and then tried, and started falling on 11's. They weren't the spraylord variety, so instead of saying how soft the Red was, their reaction was, "yeah, sure, the moves are easy one at a time, but Oh boy, putting them all together... "

Still, climbing at the Red is very straightforward, and so is training for it. Once you get that overhanging endurance, it really does feel soft, and so do all other areas where the overall difficulty of climbs comes from managing the pump on overhang, rather than from individual moves.

I had a funny experience in Spain last year. On my first day, we ran into couple climbers from Smith Rock. They were hangdogging this 12a, and talking about how hard it was. I was complaining about the difficulty or a nearby 5.11. We bonded over our complaining, and traded routes. The route they had trouble with was nothing but large pockets and finger buckets on overhanging wall, interspersed with practically-hands-free rests, and I flashed it easily, despite struggling on that 5.11. Meanwhile, they easily stepped their way up the techy 11, carrying a pleasant conversation the entire time...  needless to say, we disagreed about the relative difficulty of those two routes.

 
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I get what you are saying, but if you take a steep (insert grade here) from the Red and compare it to a steep (insert grade here) from another place like CCC, Rifle, Vegas, Maple, NRG, etc....the RRG (insert grade here) nearly always feels easier in my experience, regardless of the type of rock, developer, etc. 

 Cpn Dunsel wrote:

Anecdote ain't data.

Climbing grades are not some monolithic and narrowly construed set of parameters.  

What's your point? Every post in this thread is anecdotal, nothing has been data based; we are talking about climbing grades   Climbing is entirely subjective as you, yourself pointed out.