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What to do with old cams

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
Former Climber wrote:

Step 1: place U stem Camalot in test fixture at 60% expansion.

Step 2:  apply load.

Step 3:  watch the axles go U shaped and the cam slide from the crack well below rating.

I’ve done this with 4 or 5 of them.  Issue is the cutouts on the lobe to allow assembly and corresponding necking down of the axles.  

Brought it up to BD a decade ago, and they refused to issue a recall, saying only that they were an old design and should be replaced.  

They should be retired.

Edit: seems I still have one of the samples:

Max. Its true. & especially the "JRs" The fact that many of us have spent 30 years whipping & NOT ripping or deform them, does not matter, they fail at around 50% or so I've been told - repeatedly. (The Skinny Lobes De-form!)

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492

Backup dibs. I've got a paypal balance that's screaming to be spent.

EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160
Former Climber wrote:

Step 1: place U stem Camalot in test fixture at 60% expansion.

Step 2:  apply load.

Step 3:  watch the axles go U shaped and the cam slide from the crack well below rating.

I’ve done this with 4 or 5 of them.  Issue is the cutouts on the lobe to allow assembly and corresponding necking down of the axles.  

Brought it up to BD a decade ago, and they refused to issue a recall, saying only that they were an old design and should be replaced.  

They should be retired.

Edit: seems I still have one of the samples.  Was scary watching it ooze out of the fixture at low load as the axles bent.  Wire loop got cut so I could count the strands.

thats a second generation you have there in the pic.....


like i said, i had used them forever before i even found out they were "suspect". bd said even if the head cracks, the cables still wont go through. multiples of falls on them, and none the less for wear. the heads where the cables go through still look new. if they were going to crack, they would have done so in the 30 years ive had them, and they still havent. while im not a "bd fanboy" i just know nothing happened this far. 30 years is a long time.

i do have 6 brand spankin new still with tags trango max cam # 1's in my gear bins that last year i found out were recalled a long time ago. (i took a hiatus from climbing for a bit) trango didnt want to do anything for me at first. i paid 65 a piece for them because they were "cam of the year" or something like that when they came out. they finally caved and told me they would give me 3 cams for my 6.the dude i spoke with made some excuse that i bought them from ems, and not them so they were less inclined to help me. poor excuse aside from the recall was a long time ago....i decided that if they didnt want to stand behind their gear and replace it id just keep them to show everyone their garbage when i got the chance, eat the 375 bucks, whatever it came out to since it was a ways back and it wasnt fresh out of my pocket, and never buy another piece of trango gear ever again. youd think they would want to keep customers....

i dug out the bd's for ya....

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
Former Climber, wrote: Perhaps I never got my hands on a first gen, as I don't recall testing a U stem with the ball swage termination.

My guess is they would have the same failure mode, and well under rating.  That you'd not loaded it to the point the axles bend is, well, perhaps an indication you never really subjected them to a high force load.  Happy to throw one on the puller....



Different cams, The 'Ball-Swage is a regular 2nd Gen Camalot, not a "JR" the Green & Smaller purple 'U-cable cams
Jonny Schaefer · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2019 · Points: 5

Newb

EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160
Former Climber wrote:

Quite the edit.

FWIW, Trango changed ownership a couple years back, and Maxcams off the market longer than that, IIRC.  Wanting a refund from a company other than the one you bought it from, many years later?

I can’t imagine why you’d have trouble with that.

Anyway, watch the video and then tell me they’re safe.

no clue as to if trango sold their company to someone else. they didnt say that was the reason for not honoring the recall.  do you mean that as trango as "another" company, or because i bought them from ems? in the second case, that would be like chevy saying they didnt want to honor a recall on something because you bought the car from joe blows dealership. i understand its a recall from a while back. if i owned the company, its a mere pittance to replace bad cams your company put out that were faulty to keep good customer relations. the 6 cams i paid full price for probably cost them a 6th of what i paid for them to have them made overseas. thats just a educated guess from knowing what some manufacturing costs from doing stuff overseas. i just couldnt see taking 3 48 dollar cams to replace 6 65 dollar cams. it was a sore spot.....yes i admit it. i took a hiatus right after the purchase, thats why they were still in the gear bin brand new. id have been using them had i not decided to check them out online to see if they were still making them and saw a recall come up in my search. im sure some will say im stoopit and should have just took what i could get.....anyhow, im over it....here they will sit.


i saw the video. dont most cams self destruct during pull testing? ive seen plenty of cam axles bend from falls, or pull tests. how many pounds did it fail at....and what was the ratingof the cam? that is the question that needs answering.
EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160
Suburban Roadside wrote:

Different cams, The 'Ball-Swage is a regular 2nd Gen Camalot, not a "JR" the Green & Smaller purple 'U-cable cams

i call em first gen, unless youre counting the chouinards that look pretty much identical as first gen, then the one he pull tested would be considered a third gen with the plastic sleeve around the whole cable. the camalots get confusing.

Terrible Climber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2019 · Points: 0

Wait so Chouinard cams/2nd gen no good but BD Jr are okay?

EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160
Former Climber wrote:

EFS- you literally said you bought from EMS, not Trango. 


Why would Trango have any responsibility for a refund?

And what does this have to do with U-Stem Camalots?

But yes, Trango changed hands a couple years back.

As for the force that cam I tested failed at, it’s posted above.  And here again.  

Well below rating, and in the video you can see the axles bending.
The axles, post-test:
Maybe I need glasses, but those axles don’t look straight.

brother, youre missing the point here. not a refund, a replacement. recall on the cams. trango recalled them and was replacing them. that means ALL cams, not only cams purchased directly through them. same as any other recall. when bd recalled cams a couple years ago, do you think they only took back and replaced ones bought directly from them, and left all the others hanging because they may have bought from, rei, ems, or wherever? thats how a recall works.....through the manufacturer, not the resaler. i was wrong on price, 59.95.....


paperweights....  
Fat Dad · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 60
csproul wrote:

Ha, in that case definitely sell them unless maybe you plan on frequent IC trips.

Exactly! 

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

I see this a few ways.

1. Most people don't fall often and when they do it's a short fall on a good placement. This usually turns into "I've been whipping on these things for 30 years" online. There is a clear failure mode that usually doesn't come up. That doesn't make it safe.

2. Maybe it doesn't matter since it'll be 1 or 2 greens out of 9 used on a particular route in the creek. I suppose I'd live if one blew. Seeing how often I place a piece and punch for the next reasonable stance/rest/constriction/handjam, I don't know if I'd love having this below me.

3. In 2008 I barely had an income. I was also a much better climber for the same reason. I couldn't afford to just replace cams so I ignored these warnings and kept climbing. 2020, gainfully employed, children, shitty climber, you bet the sketchy stuff is off the rack.

Ignore the tests if you want. I did and it never bit me in the ass. It doesn't make the data wrong.

FWIW, the Rigid Friends are fine. Clunky and fine.

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: I see this a few ways.

1. Most people don't fall often and when they do it's a short fall on a good placement. This usually turns into "I've been whipping on these things for 30 years" online. There is a clear failure mode that usually doesn't come up. That doesn't make it safe.

2. Maybe it doesn't matter since it'll be 1 or 2 greens out of 9 used on a particular route in the creek. I suppose I'd live if one blew. Seeing how often I place a piece and punch for the next reasonable stance/rest/constriction/handjam, I don't know if I'd love having this below me.

3. In 2008 I barely had an income. I was also a much better climber for the same reason. I couldn't afford to just replace cams so I ignored these warnings and kept climbing. 2020, gainfully employed, children, shitty climber, you bet the sketchy stuff is off the rack.

Ignore the tests if you want. I did and it never bit me in the ass. It doesn't make the data wrong.

  Well said.

 I retired these from the lead Rax,  after 1 short season, they have been deployed in pairs as directionals In Top Rope set-ups

Dangerous old Flexible Friends-mechanical/structual/geometric issues w/failures-Why increase the gamble?~ On the other hand, if you're generating forces that could come close to compromising the "Super Tape" webbing, you're going to have bigger problems!

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Suburban Roadside wrote:

  Well said.

 I retired these from the lead Rax,  after 1 short season, they have been deployed in pairs as directionals In Top Rope set-ups

I've not heard of this issue with the old Technical Friends. That picture looks like part of my trad rack. What is the concern (I've read the replies above) but would like more detail? I no longer climb enough trad to justify a new set of cams.

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
Marc801 C wrote:

I've not heard of this issue with the old Technical Friends. That picture looks like part of my trad rack. What is the concern (I've read the replies above) but would like more detail? I no longer climb enough trad to justify a new set of cams.

I know right! 

The word was/has been that there were instances of the cable/brazing being insuficiant/breaking when torqued (load not perpendicular to axle)

Also 

The concerns were that the the short cable in many placements put extreme force in a bad way on the axle & included a history of failurs. The 'fix' was to add the "Exo-sckeleton"= The Black plastic housing provided more predictable loading.  Hope that you can decode the garble; Check in with the actual Engineers for more 

EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160
Suburban Roadside wrote:

  Well said.

 I retired these from the lead Rax,  after 1 short season, they have been deployed in pairs as directionals In Top Rope set-ups

Dangerous old Flexible Friends-mechanical/structual/geometric issues w/failures-Why increase the gamble?~ On the other hand, if you're generating forces that could come close to compromising the "Super Tape" webbing, you're going to have bigger problems!

this is the first time im seeing anywhere about old flexible friends being bad or suspect of anything. ive never heard other than good about them. is this the cylindrical or hexagonal swaged ones? the hex ones were early 90s. i think cylindrical were late 80s


geez, with the older original stuff in my rack, it must be the death rack from hell......
Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
EFS wrote:

this is the first time im seeing anywhere about old flexible friends being bad or suspect of anything. ive never heard other than good about them. is this the cylindrical or hexagonal swaged ones? the hex ones were early 90s. i think cylindrical were late 80s


geez, with the older original stuff in my rack, it must be the death rack from hell......

 I'm just the messenger here. I am not saying that. 

As I said the 'early Gen' ~ lacking the black plastic "frame"~ had shorter cable stems that contribute to "un-even" loading" The incidence of physical failure of individual units called on, by an extreme falls, to perform/deform, cracked/bent axles - led to testing that led to the immediate introduction of the plastic/nylon "frame" that was the standard for the next 5+ years if I remember correctly which is a stretch. 

Please, do not doubt your gear. I'm not knocking the tools, I use still them. I am just pointing out what I've been told when others see my rack.  These are experienced climbers, some buyers & gear-reps: Geeks who obsess about the minutia  -gearheads who know what & why things where discontinued. 

The "Peened" axle on the #0, the cam with blue trigger-bar at the left end,  is an example of a 1st Gen, that was recalled if I remember correctly & as you see I continued to use them.

1st Gen w/'peend' ends ~ 88" per "Nutstory" - "super-beefy" Blue "Super-Tape" sling (later run? w/ yellow bar-tack thread)

EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160
Suburban Roadside wrote:

 I'm just the messenger here. I am not saying that. 

As I said the 'early Gen' ~ lacking the black plastic "frame"~ had shorter cable stems that contribute to "un-even" loading" The incidence of physical failure of individual units called on, by an extreme falls, to perform/deform, cracked/bent axles - led to testing that led to the immediate introduction of the plastic/nylon "frame" that was the standard for the next 5+ years if I remember correctly which is a stretch. 

Please, do not doubt your gear. I'm not knocking the tools, I use still them. I am just pointing out what I've been told when others see my rack.  These are experienced climbers, some buyers & gear-reps: Geeks who obsess about the minutia  -gearheads who know what & why things where discontinued. 

The "Peened" axle on the #0, the cam with blue trigger-bar at the left end,  is an example of a 1st Gen, that was recalled if I remember correctly & as you see I continued to use them.

1st Gen w/'peend' ends ~ 88" per "Nutstory" - "super-beefy" Blue "Super-Tape" sling (later run? w/ yellow bar-tack thread)



nahhh, i didnt mean you were saying i had the death rack from hell, i was making a generalized statement and half jokng after hearing some people talk about the gear. i could tell you werent too worried about the gear not working. im not doubting the gear i have because ive used it so damn much and never had an issue with a piece not working. some have taken some pretty good falls too. i looked and i have probably about 6 flexible friends, 4 i remember purchasing early 90s, and a couple booty pieces. a couple have the cylindrical crimp/weld, the others have the hex. im also very concious about how i place cams when i do so theres not much rotation/bending if one takes a fall. i see some guys just stick cams straight in horizontally on a vertical crack. ive always tried to make sure the stem is mostly pointing downward. the only times the stem on the flex friends would bend a lot is all the horizontals at the gunks, or similar horizontal cracks.....

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419


EFS, All Good & Yeah, knowing how to use a tool with-in reasonable expectations seems to be a challenge for many "climbers" these days.

Hey ~ I've been meaning to ask you;
Is this The Delaware Water Gap? (Triumveret?"?)

EFS · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 160

yeah thats the chimney near it. think its called cryptic. easy peasy shit, pic looked cool tho....the ex g/f used to like going up it when she started climbing. finally got her doing some 10 roofs at the gunks....

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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