Best snag-free very light trad carabiner

I am excited to see this come to production.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180320729A1/en?q=black&q=diamond&q=equipment&after=priority:20150101
A little concerned about figure 2B & 2C with the reverse hood, wondering if it will catch.

Saw this posted here on MP a while back.

^meh
Only if it is cheaper or lighter than a Dyon

Wes Martin wrote: Since when is clipping and handling a biner such a hard task? Wtf are you people talking about?

It isn't, when sized for my hands.  

I don't know how old you are, but a lifetime of using my hands has left them less than dexterous. Sometimes they don't do what I want them to, or do it with a lot of pain. I quit playing guitar because barre-ing a chord was excruciating on my thumb. My dreadnought had a higher action that made playing not fun. My Les Paul was better, but still hurt, even after I changed to 8's for strings.  

Don't have that problem with full sized carabiners.

Khoi wrote:

21st century America is putting children in cages, where some are left to die, and, drone striking innocent men, women, and children...

When I was a kid, my parents put me in a cage. It was called a "playpen." No big deal. I liked it.

FrankPS wrote:

When I was a kid, my parents put me in a cage. It was called a "playpen." No big deal. I liked it.

That's totally funny.  We had a large dog run(12'x20') on a concrete slab in our back yard growing up. When my parents sold the house the new owners converted it into a play area for their kids! 

It had an 8 foot chain link fence around it, and chain link cap covering about 6 feet on one end to keep our dog from getting on top of his dog house and jumping out.

I drove by it this year and the fence is gone, and it looks like there is a 2 story MIL cottage using the slab. Or maybe it is just a really nice playhouse for the kids.

Derek DeBruin wrote:

Notably, either when climbing with double ropes or when I'm trying to clip by stabilizing the carabiner with my middle finger. When my hands are already cold this can further complicate matters. Do you just avoid this clipping method?

Yep, I generally avoid using the finger clip method when I've got gloves on regardless of what carabiner I'm using.  If the biner is on a long sling and the gear isn't to far away, say while ice climbing, I'll pull up some rope, bite it with my teeth and then grab the sling and clip that to the rope.  Really easy to just push the biner over the rope with this technique.

F you weight weenies, I’m headed towards steel like god intended.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

Yep, I generally avoid using the finger clip method when I've got gloves on regardless of what carabiner I'm using.  If the biner is on a long sling and the gear isn't to far away, say while ice climbing, I'll pull up some rope, bite it with my teeth and then grab the sling and clip that to the rope.  Really easy to just push the biner over the rope with this technique.

Cool, thanks. I definitely just smack the carabiner onto the rope ice climbing since gear is lower and there's rope weight. This mostly comes up for me on trad mixed where I might be placing a cam high in an overlap or something before committing to the steep move and the carabiner is totally free hanging. I'll just work on my comp clipping.

Dave K wrote:

How does this influence your purchase of carabiners?

It doesn't influence MY purchase of climbing gear at all, as evidenced by the amount of Made in USA gear I own.

The OP stated that they avoid buying gear that made in China due to China's human rights abuses. Hobo Greg subtly pointed out the hypocrisy of that stance if the boycotter still buys American made products. Then you replied to Hobo Greg with a response that appears to declare the 19th century as the last time America did shitty things. Then I replied to you reminding you that America is STILL doing really shitty things.

Not that any of that affect my climbing gear purchases.

For what it’s worth, Wales has been largely devoid of human rights abuses.
Cymru am byth 

Matt N wrote:
DMM Alpha Light for only $8 - click here!
shameless plug

Just thought this would be a good time to again share my Alpha Light for sale thread. 

Dave K wrote Children are being detained because adults have brought them into the country outside of established legal processes for family immigration

I'm sure the children in cages here take great comfort knowing it was their parent's choice to come here, versus having no choice in China.  Hey wait a minute do parents in Honduras and Venezuela really have a choice when their children are starving?

Mikey Schaefer wrote, 

I honestly don't find 19g biners hard to handle at all.  I've spent a fair bit of time technical alpine climbing in gloves with them and manage to clip/unclip them just fine.   I kinda prefer a sparse and light rack not just a sparse one.  Best of both worlds.

 I think small biners have gotten a bad rap from the metolius mini biners which were the first truly small biner to the market.  Those things are absolutely awful to use!  Gate opening was too small, the lip of the basket was too high and the spine had zero reverse curve which produced a poor handling experience.  And they aren't even that light.

Well spoken mikey... ill have to try out those 18gs.. I like photons a lot, most of my rack uses those

I went to REI last weekend to try out biners, and the only biner they had that is discussed here was the Petzl Ange (they might have had only the S; it was snag-free but I can see how some folks would need to get used to it for handling).  As for mini-biners to try, REI only had the metolius. Losers!
What's really interesting - not ONE single biner there had its weight (mass) listed on the package -  not even the Heliums! WTF???

Re: Mini-biners: 
I was fascinated by Mikey Schaefer's comment quoted just below.  I have never used mini or micro biners. I do know that I get really frustrated with "snaggy" biners, and there are no snag-free minis.  One poster above said min-biners should be banned (or something to that effect), and he's not the only one.  BUT then there is Mikey's post:

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

I honestly don't find 19g biners hard to handle at all.  I've spent a fair bit of time technical alpine climbing in gloves with them and manage to clip/unclip them just fine.   I kinda prefer a sparse and light rack not just a sparse one.  Best of both worlds.

 I think small biners have gotten a bad rap from the metolius mini biners which were the first truly small biner to the market.  Those things are absolutely awful to use!  Gate opening was too small, the lip of the basket was too high and the spine had zero reverse curve which produced a poor handling experience.  And they aren't even that light.

Mikey, can you comment, you said you use your micros for technical alp, and even in gloves.  Is that steep enough that you get really pumped? If you don't get pumped and (let's not say "nervous" or "scared", but ) "notably aware", that you are run out, if you have no reason to be in a big hurry to clip a runner, I can see why snagging would not matter. Let us know your use.

My conclusion to mini-biners is: Why don't they make a mini or micro snagless one, i.e. why don't they take that 19 g one and add what, 2 g of metal to it for a hood over the nose? (I note that the Petzl Ange S is 28 g, which is nowhere near 19, but it has a quite sizable 23 mm opening.  Compare to dmm chimera at 30 g, 21 mm opening. If you can deal with the weird single wire, Ange certainly wins on opening size/g.)

Re: Heliums:

I ordered two Heliums to try and they just arrived.  For the wallet-busting price, it's not like they rocked my world.  But, they do as advertised, and a bit more:
1. they really are snag-free (I hang a runner above me flopping free, and try to clip it.  No snags.  With many other biners, bad to heinous snags.)
2. They are BIG. they have a very generous gate opening.
3. Compared to my old biners, they are very light. (33g objectively)
4. They are not round in cross-section, they have what has been described as an "I-beam" cross section, which does indeed make them easy to handle.  Really great, actually.

Someone somewhere said the gate action really did it for them.  For me, that's a "whatever".  Disclaimer: haven't climbed on them or tried to put them through bolts or chains.  Don't have any handy.

So now I'm thinking about: 28 g Ange S on the cams,  33 g Heliums on the draw, i.e the rope side?

-----------------------
digression: US trad climbers will get a HUGE kick out of this one, a french climber doing "trad".  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TeTejh1ebs

-bolts at almost every piece he puts in
-every piece he puts in is pre-set up with runners
-you will absolutely lose it at the end (I wonder who had to clean?)

-TPC

thepirate1 wrote: I went to REI last weekend to try out biners, and the only biner they had that is discussed here was the Petzl Ange (they might have had only the S; it was snag-free but I can see how some folks would need to get used to it for handling).  As for mini-biners to try, REI only had the metolius. Losers!
What's really interesting - not ONE single biner there had its weight (mass) listed on the package -  not even the Heliums! WTF???

Re: Mini-biners: 
I was fascinated by Mikey Schaefer's comment quoted just below.  I have never used mini or micro biners. I do know that I get really frustrated with "snaggy" biners, and there are no snag-free minis.  One poster above said min-biners should be banned (or something to that effect), and he's not the only one.  BUT then there is Mikey's post:

Mikey, can you comment, you said you use your micros for technical alp, and even in gloves.  Is that steep enough that you get really pumped? If you don't get pumped and (let's not say "nervous" or "scared", but ) "notably aware", that you are run out, if you have no reason to be in a big hurry to clip a runner, I can see why snagging would not matter. Let us know your use.

My conclusion to mini-biners is: Why don't they make a mini or micro snagless one, i.e. why don't they take that 19 g one and add what, 2 g of metal to it for a hood over the nose? (I note that the Petzl Ange S is 28 g, which is nowhere near 19, but it has a quite sizable 23 mm opening.  Compare to dmm chimera at 30 g, 21 mm opening. If you can deal with the weird single wire, Ange certainly wins on opening size/g.)

Re: Heliums:

I ordered two Heliums to try and they just arrived.  For the wallet-busting price, it's not like they rocked my world.  But, they do as advertised, and a bit more:
1. they really are snag-free (I hang a runner above me flopping free, and try to clip it.  No snags.  With many other biners, bad to heinous snags.)
2. They are BIG. they have a very generous gate opening.
3. Compared to my old biners, they are very light. (33g objectively)
4. They are not round in cross-section, they have what has been described as an "I-beam" cross section, which does indeed make them easy to handle.  Really great, actually.

Someone somewhere said the gate action really did it for them.  For me, that's a "whatever".  Disclaimer: haven't climbed on them or tried to put them through bolts or chains.  Don't have any handy.

So now I'm thinking about: 28 g Ange S on the cams,  33 g Heliums on the draw, i.e the rope side?

-----------------------
digression: US trad climbers will get a HUGE kick out of this one, a french climber doing "trad".  
-bolts at almost every piece he puts in
-every piece he puts in is pre-set up with runners
-you will absolutely lose it at the end (I wonder who had to clean?)

-TPC

Dude:

Try the DMM Alpha Trad as well.  There is a post in for sale where you can get them for $8 each. They are only 35gm, snag free nose, and have a much better gate action IMO than the Helium.

Can't find the post...

Buck, I'm selling Alpha Lights for $8ea - the smaller, lighter version of the Alpha Trad - now replaced by the Chimera. About 2-3g lighter than the Trad/Helium, slightly smaller - closer in size to an OZ
I wish the Chimera/Alpha Light was a 28g biner - would make it a for sure option vs the Trad/Helium. The weight savings can add up, but the Trad/Heliums are nicer for rope clipping, for me.

Matt N wrote: Buck, I'm selling Alpha Lights for $8ea - the smaller, lighter version of the Alpha Trad - now replaced by the Chimera. About 2-3g lighter than the Trad/Helium, slightly smaller - closer in size to an OZ
I wish the Chimera/Alpha Light was a 28g biner - would make it a for sure option vs the Trad/Helium. The weight savings can add up, but the Trad/Heliums are nicer for rope clipping, for me.

I did an experiment a while back after re-tooling with Mini biners (19g, Nano), and finding that I hated them and wanted a bigger biner. 

So I bought 6 Trango Phase, 6 Chimera, 6 Phantom and 12 Ange S (good deal). Paired with the Mammut Contact sling for an alpine draw.

I did not care for the Ange, so I sold them.  The Phase, Chimera and Phantom are still on my rack, but I replaced some with a BD Wildwire and CAMP Dyon. The Dyon in particular is my favorite biner right now :-)

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

I honestly don't find 19g biners hard to handle at all.  I've spent a fair bit of time technical alpine climbing in gloves with them and manage to clip/unclip them just fine.   I kinda prefer a sparse and light rack not just a sparse one.  Best of both worlds.

 I think small biners have gotten a bad rap from the metolius mini biners which were the first truly small biner to the market.  Those things are absolutely awful to use!  Gate opening was too small, the lip of the basket was too high and the spine had zero reverse curve which produced a poor handling experience.  And they aren't even that light.

I can't agree more about those blasted Metolius mini biners. I have a friend who set his entire rack up with them. Such a hateful carabiner. Nothing against Metolius, they make great stuff, but those things are God-awful. 

Great conversation I'm learning a lot. I have @40-45 Heliums that don't get used any more. I did what Mikey did and dropped down to those Edelrid 19g (and the 22ounce Camps too) biners for similar but differing reasons. Coming back from a knee problem that's been screwing with me for a couple of years (Buck, yer knees are next on the arthritis hate list buddy) I want light and have been climbing easier longer types of routes (trad). They're not as nice as the Heliums, not even close, but hey, 19g. Next on the list is to drop the weight I put on, but until then it's nice to take it off the rack. I have a newer climbing partner now who wants to bring his rack, as we have similar racks except for the biners, I'm just now wondering if he hates on the 19g biners. Anyway, they suck and are fantastic simultaneously,  you might hate on them so try before you buy. They're better than the little Metolius ones, but still tiny and can be difficult to clip.

BTW, Mikey, as you climb a lot more than me you most likely already know this, but Grivel makes a 37gram locker! They get that weight by being small and they suck in some circumstances as they're so tiny, but for clipping off a pair of shoes or a water bottle to yer harness that you don't want unclipping on a long route...37GRAMS IS SWEET! Grivel Plume K3

Billcoe wrote: Great conversation I'm learning a lot. I have @40-45 Heliums that don't get used any more. I did what Mikey did and dropped down to those Edelrid 19g (and the 22ounce Camps too) biners for similar but differing reasons. Coming back from a knee problem that's been screwing with me for a couple of years (Buck, yer knees are next on the arthritis hate list buddy) I want light and have been climbing easier longer types of routes (trad). They're not as nice as the Heliums, not even close, but hey, 19g. Next on the list is to drop the weight I put on, but until then it's nice to take it off the rack. I have a newer climbing partner now who wants to bring his rack, as we have similar racks except for the biners, I'm just now wondering if he hates on the 19g biners. Anyway, they suck and are fantastic simultaneously,  you might hate on them so try before you buy. They're better than the little Metolius ones, but still tiny and can be difficult to clip.

BTW, Mikey, as you climb a lot more than me you most likely already know this, but Grivel makes a 37gram locker! They get that weight by being small and they suck in some circumstances as they're so tiny, but for clipping off a pair of shoes or a water bottle to yer harness that you don't want unclipping on a long route...37GRAMS IS SWEET! Grivel Plume K3

What I am doing now on some trad draws is have a compact biner for clipping gear, and a larger, yet still light-ish biner to clip the rope to.  Some people are OCD and need the same stuff, but I am more franken-gear at this point.