Belay <insert demeaning word describing management> says - "No ATC for you!"

https://m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Influence-of-the-belay-device?ActivityName=Rock-climbing

https://m.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Forces-at-work-in-a-real-fall?ActivityName=Rock-climbing

Be careful when trad climbing with thin pro with a gri

wolfsburgweekender wrote: i can't help but feel like all the people arguing for an ATC haven't used anything else. id have to imagine most of the people who have used and ABD (grigri especially in my opinion) have made the switch. who wouldn't want a faster, smoother, safer device ??

I'm not arguing for or against anything...what I'm not saying is that the grigri is the best fucking belay device for every application. Which is what some of you are advocating.  

What the grigri is excellent for is sport climbing with a hangdog bro. Nothing better.  

What it sucks for is the mountains, where you might run into some wet icy ropes. Grigri's stop working with icy ropes, ain't that a hoot. So in that sense, the grigri is a death tool and will get us all killed :-)

See how that sounds?  I ask new partners what tool they are most comfortable with, and that's what I expect them to use.  I am good with Grigri, ATC style and a Munter.  If my partner want me to use something else I am unfamiliar with, like a Revo, I would decline.

EDIT:  Grigri's will actually freeze in the non active mode if you get them wet and let it freeze. Scary.

To remind snowflakes again - you may choose whatever you want to belay/be belayed with, but if you go to the two gyms mentioned in the 1st post, your choices will be limited.

And, Singapore will impose restrictions as well - Incidents Down After Tube Belay Ban in Singapore

It has been two years since a handful of gyms on the tropical island country of Singapore made the controversial decision to ban the use of tubular belay devices (ATCs and similar pieces).
...
The ban came as a result of multiple accidents in the Singapore gyms—at times as many as one ground fall per week—in which tubular devices were used. Additionally, the ban was informed by a 2012 study from the German Alpine Federation that concluded that belayers using assisted-braking belay devices frequently committed less belaying errors....
Since the ban, statistics have shown a significant decrease in the amount of serious belaying incidents in Singapore gyms (“serious” meaning ground falls that require professional medical attention). In some cases, the yearly statistic of serious incidents decreased from five to just one—and, in that case, it was a bystander who was injured and not the climber.
It should be noted that banning the use of tubular devices has not been a magic bullet. In the case of these Singapore gyms, the ban was coupled with stricter re-certification efforts and education. 

wolfsburgweekender wrote: i can't help but feel like all the people arguing for an ATC haven't used anything else. id have to imagine most of the people who have used and ABD (grigri especially in my opinion) have made the switch. who wouldn't want a faster, smoother, safer device ??

I dunno how much your feelings and imagination have to do with my reality.  And personally, I'm not arguing-- folks can do what they want.  I'm more curious about why other folks do what they do, and thank you for explaining your systems and thought process.

But here, specifically, your feelings are leading you astray... that is, you're just wrong that all people who prefer atcs have never used anything else.  If my partner has a gri and wants me to use it, I do, and that happens about 1-2 times a month.

I own an eddy, but the only space where I've really liked using it was either when my buddy is climbing something too-hard bolt-to-bolt or for lead/toprrope rope solo.  But it's way clunkier than my ATC, and it's clunkier than the gri, so I don't think it's quite the same thing.  But I will use my ATC for most tasks if given a choice

Nathaniel Ward wrote: My brother ran a gym from around ‘98-‘02 that had fixed Grigris on every rope. It was a good idea then, and still is. Gym climbing isn’t about reproducing outdoor climbing. When climbing outdoors you’re in a dynamic environment and you need to use a range of knowledge and skill to manage that. A gym is exactly the opposite in that nearly every variable apart from belayer attention can be managed. So why not make the environment as safe, predictable and routinized as possible? (*From a crusty trad guy who learned to climb in 1989 on a hip belay. The right tool for job is the one to use. ) 

How Dare you bring the conversation back to the actual topic talking about gym belay policies rather than endless, self-indulgent wankery about how safe people are with their ATCs while climbing outdoors. 

Robert Hernandez wrote:

Did ya see that there is a second belayer because of the risk associated with a non ABD device? How about the fact they are currently switching over to an auto belay system for future events? What do you think insurance companies use when making decisions? Data or their nostalgic feelings? My guess is the latter.

I think you mean the FORMER, right?

I work in high end litigation. Insurance companies have zero nostalgic feelings.

Robert Hernandez wrote:

Did ya see that there is a second belayer because of the risk associated with a non ABD device? How about the fact they are currently switching over to an auto belay system for future events? What do you think insurance companies use when making decisions? Data or their nostalgic feelings? My guess is the latter.

I believe you meant former. 

Using two devices is hardly case closed when you consider the belay protocol described as a “controlled fall”.

Colonel Mustard wrote:

I believe you meant former. 

Using two devices is hardly case closed when you consider the belay protocol described as a “controlled fall”.

I think the 2nd belayer is a tail, not a device. Ie. someone holding the brake strand loosely in case the first belayer loses his/her grip.

Our only gym in northern delaware specifically doesnt teach using these types of devices because it breeds bad habits in people who already have no clue whats going on. This Will no doubt cause more accidents outside that hopefully won't involve bystanders. Nice thinly veiled gear sales push.

All i know is when someone sprays their whole life experience and insists on using a tuber they should go solo something or climb with like minded folk. The whole discussion seems like a no brainer to me. Am I nuts?

If i ran a gym and some dude sprayed me his resume in order to not use an ABD I'd kick him out to the curb.

Dave McMahon wrote: Our only gym in northern delaware specifically doesnt teach using these types of devices because it breeds bad habits in people who already have no clue whats going on. This Will no doubt cause more accidents outside that hopefully won't involve bystanders. Nice thinly veiled gear sales push.

Delaware? Oh shit!

M Mobes wrote: All i know is when someone sprays their whole life experience and insists on using a tuber they should go solo something or climb with like minded folk. The whole discussion seems like a no brainer to me. Am I nuts?

If i ran a gym and some dude sprayed me his resume in order to not use an ABD I'd kick him out to the curb.

Exactly. Especially when you look at the belay and general safety habits of some of the most impressive climbing resumes. 

Dave McMahon wrote: Our only gym in northern delaware specifically doesnt teach using these types of devices because it breeds bad habits in people who already have no clue whats going on. This Will no doubt cause more accidents outside that hopefully won't involve bystanders. Nice thinly veiled gear sales push.

Lol, it that what they told you?! It only breeds bad habits if you teach it wrong.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Just because you feel you need an ABD doesn't mean everyone else needs one, too!  Geez, can't we all just get along and use the belay device with we individually feel most comfortable?

Then came the churches, then came the schools
Then came the lawyers, then came the rules
-Mark Knopfler - Telegraph Road.

M Mobes wrote: All i know is when someone sprays their whole life experience and insists on using a tuber they should go solo something or climb with like minded folk. The whole discussion seems like a no brainer to me. Am I nuts?

If i ran a gym and some dude sprayed me his resume in order to not use an ABD I'd kick him out to the curb.

And then there is the other side of any given arguement, where maybe your opinion isn't everything:
https://rockandice.com/climb-safe/climb-safe-belay-school-why-dynamic-matters/?fbclid=IwAR0CyXyxCn0FwZW5bVV2QLTxQbX-AT5UYJClsVQuOPWzkil28a4YTjsbtVI

Buck Rio wrote: I am good with Grigri, ATC style and a Munter.  

Finally, someone brings up the Munter, the original, and still the lightest, soft catch belay device.

kgray wrote:

Finally, someone brings up the Munter, the original, and still the lightest, soft catch belay device.

And the best "device" in the Alpine. 

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

And the best "device" in the Alpine. 

Although, I have never seen a gym anywhere that will allow the Munter. This includes France(Arkose) and Austria(ÖTK-Halle). 

The only thing I don't like about the Munter is the twisting. If you don't pay special care in your technique, it will twist the shit out of your rope.

Tony B wrote:

And then there is the other side of any given arguement, where maybe your opinion isn't everything:
https://rockandice.com/climb-safe/climb-safe-belay-school-why-dynamic-matters/?fbclid=IwAR0CyXyxCn0FwZW5bVV2QLTxQbX-AT5UYJClsVQuOPWzkil28a4YTjsbtVI

Great article Tony, unfortunately its a bit off topic. 

kgray wrote:

Finally, someone brings up the Munter, the original, and still the lightest, soft catch belay device.

I thought that would be the hip.