Belay <insert demeaning word describing management> says - "No ATC for you!"

A quick google tells me that the IFSC belayers are taught to give a soft catch by dynamically braking (don't actually stop the rope), which would be rather hard with an ABD.  Basically they go right from feeding to lowering without an actual "catch" anywhere, like a human autobelay.  Thus, the rules require a manual device.  This is likely also to ensure a smooth feed so competitors don't get short roped.

I'll stick with an ABD and actually catching my partners, myself.  I'm not a professional trained comp belayer.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Watching the IFSC combined qualifier from Toulouse.  All the belayers are using tube style devices.  Clearly, they don't have any clue what they are doing.

No hangdogging allowed in comps. They don't even stop the climber when they fall, just give a slowed down fall all the way to the floor. 

Just because you feel you need an ABD doesn't mean everyone else needs one, too!  Geez, can't we all just get along and use the belay device with we individually feel most comfortable?

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Just because you feel you need an ABD doesn't mean everyone else needs one, too!  Geez, can't we all just get along and use the belay device with we individually feel most comfortable?

Its not about you and what you dont want to learn, its about the person you are belaying mostly. I certainly have had MANY close calls with falling rocks over many years, how about you?

M Mobes wrote:

Its not about you and what you dont want to learn, its about the person you are belaying mostly. I certainly have had MANY close calls with falling rocks over many years, how about you?

I suspect we all would like partners who have a like sense of acceptable risk. The reality is that balancing that in a partnership is a near continual ebb and flow. Perhaps best is just being up front about personal limits so individuals can decide.

And, sure, I’d set aside my non-ABD and use an ABD for you. No problem.

John Reeve wrote:

Well, like, two days ago?  And yeah, I've made it feed like crap in guide mode.  If I use a round biner and place it above me, it feeds pretty well.  FWIW, if you're climbing with 3 folks, it's nice cause you can belay two folks at the same time.  I dunno, maybe the gri is better.  ATC guide isn't bad though.

And yeah, I have used it with twin/half ropes.  I'm guessing that you don't?  

you're guessing right. i don't use double ropes. i also don't like climbing multi-pitch in parties of 3 where i would need an atc to haul up two others at the same time. you're right an atc is the best option for both of those situations. however i find those things rare and there is an atc in the bottom of my pack that never sees the light of day for those occasions. i also find it strange that you're climbing on double ropes and don't have a grigri... i know they aren't related but it does seem odd to me. i used an atc for a long time before i switched over and didn't want to for a long time ... but now that i've seen the light i'm here to tell you to go out and get a grigri and use it in all the practical situations and thank me later.

I climb with "double" ropes---meaning half ropes, not twins---almost exclusively.  There is no role for a Grigri for them.  BD makes an ATC guide that is adapted to smaller diameters, which is probably the way to go for a non-ABD device.  I've tried various Juls and Smarts and have so far gone back to the Alpine Up as by far the best an ABD belay/rappel device for half ropes.  (An advantage of increasingly little importance is that if you are used to rope handling with a tube, the Alpine Up has almost no learning curve.)

M Mobes wrote:

Its not about you and what you dont want to learn, its about the person you are belaying mostly. I certainly have had MANY close calls with falling rocks over many years, how about you?

There is no data to support that an ABD is safer than a tube style device. You may feel that an ATC is unsafe but there is absolutely no data to support that conclusion.  So, you should continue to use your ABD because you feel safe using it.  I feel safe using my ATC and will continue to use it(as will all my climbing partners).

This isn't about "learning a new trick" as you all like to say.  It's about taking a rational, unbiased look at the data and realizing that both types of belay devices are safe if used properly and if proper belay techniques are used as well.

rgold wrote: I climb with "double" ropes---meaning half ropes, not twins---almost exclusively.  There is no role for a Grigri for them.  BD makes an ATC guide that is adapted to smaller diameters, which is probably the way to go for a non-ABD device.  I've tried various Juls and Smarts and have so far gone back to the Alpine Up as by far the best an ABD belay/rappel device for half ropes.  (An advantage of increasingly little importance is that if you are used to rope handling with a tube, the Alpine Up has almost no learning curve.)

To expand on this, I sometimes use half ropes, and am comfortable using a CAMP Piu with them. I tried the MegaJul, and I had trouble with it locking up all the time. I need more practice with it, but did find almost no difference in the handling of the device to a straight tuber device. I like the handle thingy. 

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:

There is no data to support that an ABD is safer than a tube style device. You may feel that an ATC is unsafe but there is absolutely no data to support that conclusion.  So, you should continue to use your ABD because you feel safe using it.  I feel safe using my ATC and will continue to use it(as will all my climbing partners).

This isn't about "learning a new trick" as you all like to say.  It's about taking a rational, unbiased look at the data and realizing that both types of belay devices are safe if used properly and if proper belay techniques are used as well.

To expand on your reply I must assume rockfall is not something you ever deal with right?

M Mobes wrote:

To expand on your reply I must assume rockfall is not something you ever deal with right?

I have climbed, since 1972, in one of the loosest climbing areas in the United States, Pinnacles National Park/Monument.  I have climbed in the Italian Dolomites where rockfall is a major problem.  I still feel safe using my ATC.  If you don't feel safe with an ATC then use your ABD.  If you don't feel safe climbing with me because I use and ATC then don't climb with me.  But, please don't label me as an unsafe climber or, as someone else did upthread, someone who doesn't care about the safety of his climbing partners.

As I said before, there is no data to indicate that tube style devices are less safe than ABD's.  If you prefer to use an ABD then use it.  I am not going to criticize or judge you.  Please don't do the same to me.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:

I have climbed, since 1972, in one of the loosest climbing areas in the United States, Pinnacles National Park/Monument.  I have climbed in the Italian Dolomites where rockfall is a major problem.  I still feel safe using my ATC.  If you don't feel safe with an ATC then use your ABD.  If you don't feel safe climbing with me because I use and ATC then don't climb with me.  But, please don't label me as an unsafe climber or, as someone else did upthread, someone who doesn't care about the safety of his climbing partners.

As I said before, there is no data to indicate that tube style devices are less safe than ABD's.  If you prefer to use an ABD then use it.  I am not going to criticize or judge you.  Please don't do the same to me.

On paper it's obvious that an ABD is "safer". An absence of data proves nothing.

An ATC could work great for you, until it doesn't. The point is that your ATC isn't for you, it's for your partner, so it doesn't really matter how you feel.

Tradiban wrote:

On paper it's obvious that an ABD is "safer". An absence of data proves nothing.

An ATC could work great for you, until it doesn't. The point is that your ATC isn't for you, it's for your partner, so it doesn't really matter how you feel.

You must have not read that German study.  With ABD’s, we’re raising up a good sized crop of crappy belayers. Get a second language!

Geez you get up early. Avoiding that CA metropolis traffic crush?

Bill Lawry wrote:

You must have not read that German study.  With ABD’s, we’re raising up a good sized crop of crappy belayers. Get a second language!

Geez you get up early. Avoiding that CA metropolis traffic crush?

Seize the carpe Bill.

And if it wasn't for our boys in world war II the Germans would still be speaking German!

i can't help but feel like all the people arguing for an ATC haven't used anything else. id have to imagine most of the people who have used and ABD (grigri especially in my opinion) have made the switch. who wouldn't want a faster, smoother, safer device ??

wolfsburgweekender wrote: i can't help but feel like all the people arguing for an ATC haven't used anything else. 

^^^ an example of why feelings can be deceiving.  And, believe me, I've erroneously followed my feelings more than once.

Tradiban wrote:

Seize the carpe Bill.

Over here we use green chile for that. Also makes caffeine overkill (secondary effect).  ;) 

bagel bagels wrote: How will I display my superiority now?

Exactly. 

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:

I have climbed, since 1972, in one of the loosest climbing areas in the United States, Pinnacles National Park/Monument.  I have climbed in the Italian Dolomites where rockfall is a major problem.  I still feel safe using my ATC.  If you don't feel safe with an ATC then use your ABD.  If you don't feel safe climbing with me because I use and ATC then don't climb with me.  But, please don't label me as an unsafe climber or, as someone else did upthread, someone who doesn't care about the safety of his climbing partners.

As I said before, there is no data to indicate that tube style devices are less safe than ABD's.  If you prefer to use an ABD then use it.  I am not going to criticize or judge you.  Please don't do the same to me.

My resume is bigger than yours Bruce.

My brother ran a gym from around ‘98-‘02 that had fixed Grigris on every rope. It was a good idea then, and still is. Gym climbing isn’t about reproducing outdoor climbing. When climbing outdoors you’re in a dynamic environment and you need to use a range of knowledge and skill to manage that. A gym is exactly the opposite in that nearly every variable apart from belayer attention can be managed. So why not make the environment as safe, predictable and routinized as possible? (*From a crusty trad guy who learned to climb in 1989 on a hip belay. The right tool for job is the one to use. )