Pros and cons of simul-rappelling

JCM wrote:

I think that the Gri-Gri is equivelantly safe for rappelling as an ATC with friction hitch backup below. Both have their risks and issues; an ATC with backup is not foolproof either. I don't think that there is strong evidence to conclude that the Gri-Gri is an inherently riskier choice. Either setup has risks to be aware of.

I do not believe you can say that. To mess up with ATC + backup, you need to mess up 2 independent setups, either because the rope diameter is different than you're used to, some conditions are new you didn't account for or you just manage to clip something into your gear loop, etc.... You have to somehow loose control of 2 different devices in order to free fall.

Franck Vee wrote:

I do not believe you can say that. To mess up with ATC + backup, you need to mess up 2 independent setups, either because the rope diameter is different than you're used to, some conditions are new you didn't account for or you just manage to clip something into your gear loop, etc.... You have to somehow loose control of 2 different devices in order to free fall.

A gri gri is much less prone to error as opposed to the atc, you have to both pull the handle all the way back and let go of the brake strand to free fall. Where as on an ATC all you have to do is tend the autoblock. I know of an accident here recently where the user was rapping on an extended ATC, single line, with a proper autoblock, they got going to fast due to too little friction in the system and gripped above the ATC and onto their autoblock resulting in an 80 foot fall to the ground. People often set up inadequate autoblocks on their ATC or don't have enough extension between their ATC and autoblock. The ATC is less friction on a single rope rappel, especially of concern on skinnier ropes. 

Franck Vee wrote:

I do not believe you can say that. To mess up with ATC + backup, you need to mess up 2 independent setups, either because the rope diameter is different than you're used to, some conditions are new you didn't account for or you just manage to clip something into your gear loop, etc.... You have to somehow loose control of 2 different devices in order to free fall.

The backup I usually use (and that is pretty common for others to use) is just a autoblock below the device clipped to a leg loop. Probably not saving you if the ATC is incorrectly set up or otherwise fails. Plus with the autoblock you need the right number of wraps, tended correctly, etc. There is more to mess up, and there is potential for interference between the ATC and autoblock. A Gri-Gri is simpler to set up (less to mess up). So it roughly balances out I think. 

So, yes, I think they are approximately equivelant in safety. Especially if considering things on an order of magnitude scale, which is the scale that really matters.

Climbers tend to "major in the minors" when it comes to safety (and training, but that is a different story...). The relative safety of an ATC+autoblock vs. GriGri is not what is most likely to lead to your safety vs. untimely demise.  The vastly bigger effect is knotted ends, testing your system before unclipped, and having some sort of system that will save you if you let go of the brake end (an autoblock or GriGri both meet this need adequately).  So we can argue all day about whether ATC + autoblock vs. GriGri is slightly better, but in the end it isn't that important, since either option is an order of magnitude better than an ATC by itself.

Jake Jones wrote:

Not always.  A third hand that can reach the device can prevent it from working, or can get stuck in the device- depending on the cord and configuration.  This effectively fucks both the third hand and the rappel device simultaneously.

This.  An autoblock is pretty easy to accidently overcome and have it fail, due to reaching the device, snagging on something external, etc. 

Here is a good article on Counterweight Rapelling (Simul-rap) https://americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog Basically it says if done right it's safe and the risks are not worth it unless time is an issue. And it shows a bomber simul-rap set-up. For me only use it when weather becomes an issue

Looking at things from the perspective of 51 years of climbing and losing dozens of friends many to rap accidents I feel that the added risk is rarely worth the time savings.

And anyone who says "OK BOOMER" better not be on my lawn,.. ;)

DR Rockso. your 80ft deck happened because they auto block was not set up properly.   if they had enough wraps around the rope for it to actually grab effectively grabbing the auto block itself will actually make it work better not worse. if it's wrapped so loose that it releases when you grab it its loose enough that it won't grab effectively anyways.

Don't see how folks are blaming Brads partner for not having the same style belay device as brad. .. Its pretty clear from the outside article that the rope was not centered on the rappel anchor at the mid point.  stunningly clear that they did not have  a visual of both ends of the rope on the next ledge and clear that the famous climber was calling the shots.   My take away.  #1 is reinforcing my opinion that simo rapping is stupid in all situations other than trying to break world records and out run bad storms. Both situations with partners who have extensive experience working together and using that procedure together.    Exceptions would be  Cerebus / Triconia Nail in the Black hills  or simeler (only way down) and possibly inspecting and discussing a sport climbing project that both climbers are going to work. #2   NEVER let reputation or fame get you killed.  Even if you are climbing with a total bad ass don't fall into client mode.  A simple dude, lets make shure  both ends are on the ledge or sticking to his guns about finding the middle mark would have saved the day.

Got this from an experienced climber I trust who doesn't want to get sucked into the fray here - sharing here in case it's helpful to grigri users among us.

"A suggested 'backup' to use with a Grigri rappel is to redirect the brake strand using a Freino-type carabiner. Redirecting the brake strand on a Grigri positions the rope so the lever will be more likely to engage in the event the rappeller loses control of the brake strand- thus it acts as a backup. It also allows much more control during the rappel. A redirect is the standard "lowering" backup for using a Grigri off a direct-anchor belay, a similar function to a Grigri used to rappel." 

I have had Gri Gri slip TR rope solo with brand new slippery 9.8

Don't put blind faith in autoblocks especially if you don't extend it.  IMO if you are going to use an autoblock, do it properly and extend your rapell device.

patto wrote: Don't put blind faith in autoblocks especially if you don't extend it.  IMO if you are going to use an autoblock, do it properly and extend your rapell device.

Wow, scary. Thanks for sharing.

It's hard to see what his set-up is, but at 1:06 you can see he was doing a single line rappel and did not use an extra carabiner for friction. You get a blurry glimpse of his friction hitch at 1:26 - looks like just a couple of wraps with a thin cord, hitched to his leg loop. Seems like an insufficient number of wraps, especially on a wet rope. These seem like important factors in the fall.

Unclear if rappelling directly off the belay loop had anything to do with it. Is there more info besides the video?

The discussion is linked in the video.   You can read it here:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62220-Rap-accident-in-Rubio-Canyon-60-fall

biggest thing with auto block is to test it and use it a lot and understand what it will and will not do.  A loose autoblock that slides easily down the rope will not work to stop you on the bottom 1/2 of your rappel.. it has to be tight enough to be a PINTA at the top of the rappel to actually work at the bottom of the rappel. 

patto wrote: The discussion is linked in the video.   You can read it here:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62220-Rap-accident-in-Rubio-Canyon-60-fall

Looked like he completely let go of the brake strand.   Several accidents over the years with climbers using auto-blocks, enough that I question the reliability in less then perfect setups.  Like not extending, providing enough raps, spacing between devices and climbers failure to let go of auto lock in a fall.  

Question: does anyone know if autoblock performs better on a double line rap or single line? 

Carolina wrote: Question: does anyone know if autoblock performs better on a double line rap or single line? 

I'm pretty sure neither will engage if your rappel gets out of control. They are only useful if you need a hands free stop. rgold might have some elaboration on this, but that's what I understood.

As for the video, why rappel on a single strand when you have two on the drop? Weird. Especially with wet ropes. Jesus. 

I used an auto block for a year before giving it up. Still, that video depicts an auto block setup that is about as poorly done as could be.

More generally, the number of variables is indeed large including the diameter of the rope(s) and the diameter of the autoblock (or how stiff / supple it is).

Getting the Goldilocks rig without much testing is non-trivial ... that being a rig that can be slid down with relative ease while still having the potential to make that surprise grab (unattended).   

And the testing should be without manual pre-tensioning of the hitch unless you are ok with relying on the need for it.  Edit: Once figured out, don't automatically assume that config will perform well on a different diameter of rope(s).

Nick Goldsmith wrote: DR Rockso. your 80ft deck happened because they auto block was not set up properly.   if they had enough wraps around the rope for it to actually grab effectively grabbing the auto block itself will actually make it work better not worse. if it's wrapped so loose that it releases when you grab it its loose enough that it won't grab effectively anyways.

Nick, I was a rescuer not the victim, but I'm sure having not been been there you know more about the accident than I do, the autoblock was set up correctly and double checked by a rope rescue tech instructor and former climbing guide. The problem was the rappeler kept his hands tending the autoblock so it did not engage. 

I think a lot of people count on autoblocks for things friction knots can't do.  You have to release the autoblock in order for it to grab.  In a situation in which control is lost, it is highly unlikely that someone struggling to hang on to the brake strand will just up and let it go (there have been tests confirming this), and beyond that, once the rope is moving, the ability of the autoblock to catch and hold may be diminished.  The net result is that an autoblock can be truly counted on only if (1) it is properly installed and (2) the rappeller is rendered unconscious or experiences something that causes them to completely let go.  I think this means that an autoblock as a backup for loss of control in a rappel because of inadequate device friction is a very dicey bet.  Just my opinion.

patto wrote: The discussion is linked in the video.   You can read it here:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62220-Rap-accident-in-Rubio-Canyon-60-fall

I didn't read all 5 pages of comments. Most of them were not relevant to the question of extending a rappel. It was a fascinating peek into the minds of canyoneers and how they think about things differently than rock climbers. Like seriously, one of their big take-aways was "don't use an autoblock or you'll get reliant on it - just train yourself to never let go of the rope". Yeah no. We're not going to agree on that one.

My big take-away was that this was an inexperienced rappeller (on the thread linked to the video they said he had less than 25 raps) who made many mistakes and was damn lucky he was wearing a helmet to protect his head from that big thwack and gloves to grab onto the rope and slow his fall without getting his hands skinned. He clearly didn't know how to set up an autoblock correctly and should not have been left to his own devices to set up a rap through a waterfall with slippery feet. And his partner could have increased safety by giving him a fireman's belay rather than taking video.

Extending his rappel would not have prevented this accident (and odds are not good that he could have set it up correctly). He was not using enough friction, didn't wrap the autoblock correctly, and he completely let go of his brake. Usually when people talk about reasons to extend the rappel, it's so that the autoblock can't get sucked into the ATC and prevent it from catching. I didn't see anyone suggest that's what happened here.

Although it would have been a great idea for this guy's partner to pre-rig him so that he couldn't mess it up, and that is generally done with an extended rappel. 

DrRockso wrote: At least three things went wrong here, that are necessities to safe simul-rappelling, in my personal opinion these are mandatory for 99% of situations, when simul rapping.

1. Failure to close the system (No knots)
2. Failure to use an assisted braking device or hand free backup.
3. Failure to stay within a close distance to one another, for communication and as a reminder to keep the rope weighted at all times, even on a ledge or when reaching the ground.

Statistically very few rappelling accidents happen when the first two are adhered to. We see a few happen in setup, like putting only one of the strands through the ATC. Statistically in EPC, There have been few Simul-rapping accidents because those who are simuling generally are more aware of the dangers and take the extra safety precautions. Where as it is more common for those using traditional techniques to not tie knots or use a backup.

+1 for this comment.

#3 in particular... I find that keeping the rope weighted at all times and working simultaneously is so, so important.

All in all simul rapping should be a selectively used technique and should only be used when 100% necessary. The severe consequences/margin for errors aren't worth the time saved, IMO.