Reservation system for popular crags

Do you think popular climbs/crags will ever have a reservation system (on the weekends) to control crowds and protect the environment from overuse? Perhaps one that even monetizes each reservation. I mean this seems already doable at places like the gunks where they could require people to have a preserve membership and then use an app, like the GunksApp. It could even GPS you like big brother and keep track of usage, etc. You could reserve a climb (depending on length) for say 2 hours, and pick like 4 for the day. Priority could be given in the system to those who haven't done that climb yet, and to those who get on and off the climb in timely manner.

I'm not promoting this, per se, but can see it being a reality. Thoughts?

Tiger got to hunt, Bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, “Why, why, why?”

Tiger got to sleep, Bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.

Malachi Constant wrote: Tiger got to hunt, Bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, “Why, why, why?”

Tiger got to sleep, Bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.

I don't think you can improve on that answer.

A popular local crag recently changed ownership and the new owners are imposing stricter regulations. Climbers must obtain a daily permit via emailing the owners before hand. Once they receive an answer, the climbers must print out the email and carry it with them. The owners have also stated that if you do not receive an answer, you do not get to climb, mostly because too many requests have been put in for that day. 

At risk of feeding the trolls....

Honestly there are some areas that would benefit. I think a better system would be crag based, where your group gets a permit for a crag for a day or set period of time. That could also be used to enforce group size limits (i.e., no groups more than 4 people) which would also limit impacts as well as improving the experience of an individual user. It would also encourage people to get off the beaten path and climb at crags with less 'classic' routes, where a permit would be easier to get. Plus any time you interact with a regulator to get a permit that's an opportunity for the regulator to educate you on best practices.

Climbing permits are already happening on the Grand Teton. If you want to camp along the approach anyway.

Hikers (in sensitive, popular areas such as the enchantments in WA) and hunters (everywhere, but more so in the west more than in the east) are strictly regulated to balance access with resource availability and sustainability. If our user group keeps growing as it has been it is inevitable that we will face these issues as well. The good old days are gone at a lot of crags. 

I have made this joke many times when walking up to a crowded crag. " hey we reserved this climb on MP, sooooo" .  I hope that is never a reality.

I'll take the Hilton Bivy, for two, please, July 5 and 6. Also, the first two pitches of the Casual from 6am to one on the 6th.  

Reservation ranking should be based on amount of income tax paid.

Outta my way, all you unemployed Sprinter dwellers!  (Doesn't matter if you're a Benz or Promaster.)

Brassmonkey : Mountain Project has become a forum of trolls feeding trolls.  What a waste of time.

There already are crags that do this (e.g. Hueco), or attempt to do this (e.g. Torrent Falls at the RRG, at one point, when they reopened for partial access with registration/gate code received the morning of... I believe they are closed now, unless you know someone who knows someone, or you are staying at the cabin; Roadside, also at the RRG, is another example: before they recently closed, they attempted to say that there would be a finite number of permits for the day, and if the number is filled,. that's it for the day.)

Will it be more widespread in the future? Yes, I think so.

I feel like poachers without a membership could be minimized. Also checking in and out on the app on each climb, and providing feedback through the app if the party ahead of you isn't finished, etc. could be used, along with GPS info. Then, people who play by the rules could be rewarded, and perhaps rule breakers could be reprimanded--perhaps via a point system that provides booking priority based on behavior, route popularity, when you last completed it, etc.  Anyway, sounds a bit like a nightmare.

As Lena said, a permit system was already in use at Roadside Crag at the Red.  And yes they have had lots of problems with people ignoring the permit system.  Roadside was closed this past week (hopefully temporarily) after a climber Instagrammed himself climbing there after dark without a permit.  Most likely Torrent gave up on permits for the same reason.  Even so, I can personally attest that Roadside was a MUCH more pleasant place to be after the permit system was implemented.  

I don't know if it will be the norm, but I see this becoming more common in the future, at least on publicly managed lands that have staff in place to enforce it.  Perhaps even on a climb-by-climb basis for popular long routes.  It wouldn't surprise me if you needed a permit to climb the Nose or Moonlight Buttress in the not too distant future.

Cocoapuffs 1000 wrote: I don't know if it will be the norm, but I see this becoming more common in the future, at least on publicly managed lands that have staff in place to enforce it.  Perhaps even on a climb-by-climb basis for popular long routes.  It wouldn't surprise me if you needed a permit to climb the Nose or Moonlight Buttress in the not too distant future.

Consider that Zion has a long established permit system (reservation if you will) for all the slot canyons in the park and there is a day permit for both the White Rim and Elephant Hill in Canyonlands, so it's already a precedent in the NPS lands.

Apps, GPS,... Don't just assume that everyone out there owns and carries a stupid phone... I don't.

Bagel Sendwich wrote: I'm not promoting this, per se, but can see it being a reality. Thoughts?

You are going to get a lot of hate for this idea, but I don't see the alternative to some kind of permit/reservation system long term for areas that are simply too crowded.  I'm neutral overall, personally - it would be annoying but would also mean a much more relaxed and civil climbing experience.

My wife and I like to climb at a little crag by our house that’s inside of a small city campground/park. They closed it down for a few years because hooligans always graffiti it and throw trash everywhere and a small fire was started. They put up a gate and started doing a permit system to keep track of who was causing the damage and keep it from getting crowded. I was ok with this at first because a lot of climbers put effort into cleaning it up and keeping it that way. But the other day we took a friend to climb up there and we were denied accesses because a group had paid the city to reserve the entire area, all the walls and sections for an intro class. My friend had changed his work schedule around to be able to go and there has never been any reservation system or way for us to know if it is closed down without going there. It’s jusy a limit to the total parties of people there and we were the first and only group to show up that day but couldn’t climbed because someone paid the city to use it two hours later

Zachary Bright wrote: My wife and I like to climb at a little crag by our house that’s inside of a small city campground/park. They closed it down for a few years because hooligans always graffiti it and throw trash everywhere and a small fire was started. They put up a gate and started doing a permit system to keep track of who was causing the damage and keep it from getting crowded. I was ok with this at first because a lot of climbers put effort into cleaning it up and keeping it that way. But the other day we took a friend to climb up there and we were denied accesses because a group had paid the city to reserve the entire area, all the walls and sections for an intro class. My friend had changed his work schedule around to be able to go and there has never been any reservation system or way for us to know if it is closed down without going there. It’s jusy a limit to the total parties of people there and we were the first and only group to show up that day but couldn’t climbed because someone paid the city to use it two hours later

A badly run situation for sure. It doesn't have to be that way, but bureaucrats be just that. Support your local climbing access organization and try to make it better. Whining won't help.

Keith Wood wrote:

A badly run situation for sure. It doesn't have to be that way, but bureaucrats be just that. Support your local climbing access organization and try to make it better. Whining won't help.

My point wasn’t to whine. Just giving an example of how systems are kind of haphazardly being implemented. If it was just a first come first serve permit or a reservation system it would be fine either way with me. But giving paid reseverations and priority to guides bringing groups in isnt ideal for everyone else. Especially if it’s not listed anywhere as available for rental. Someone just went through the city somehow to get that right. And we did volunteer with the climbing group and helped clean up the crag on one of the days they had volunteers come so that they would allow climbers to have access again. I’m sure they’ll figure out a system over time, the permit system was great for keeping the area clean and treated well, but the halfhearted reservation system isn’t ideal for access

Bagel Sendwich wrote: I feel like poachers without a membership could be minimized. Also checking in and out on the app on each climb, and providing feedback through the app if the party ahead of you isn't finished, etc. could be used, along with GPS info. Then, people who play by the rules could be rewarded, and perhaps rule breakers could be reprimanded--perhaps via a point system that provides booking priority based on behavior, route popularity, when you last completed it, etc.  Anyway, sounds a bit like a nightmare.

All hail Big Brother!

Eric and Lucie · 1 hour ago · Boulder, CO · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 140
Apps, GPS,... Don't just assume that everyone out there owns and carries a stupid phone... I don't.