Has anyone been dropped in guide mode when the device is levered by hand ?
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I.e. WITHOUT the sling/redirect/body weight method. |
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If I understand your question correctly its because to let rope lower you have to either overcome the weight of the climbing rope, or get them unweighted from it. As long as the climbing rope is weighted it will pinch the belayer strands and not let out slack. |
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Using a biner as a lever to lower a second who has fully weighted a rope is nearly impossible. Have you tried? Focus on biner ratcheting and device redirect. Or carry a grigri if you anticipate your second having to work on a sequence. |
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If you are overcoming the weight of the climber by simply pushing the carabiner up with your hand, the device locks as soon as you stop pushing - just like with a GriGri lever. |
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chris magness wrote: Using a biner as a lever to lower a second who has fully weighted a rope is nearly impossible. Have you tried? Yes, several times, including people who weigh more than me. |
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I didn't know you could do this, but that's really handy. I don't see any likely failure modes... could be fun to experiment close to the ground and see what boneheaded things you can do while trying to lower. 2 unlikely things - maybe if you totally panic you can reflexively jerk the ATC further back and drop the climber, sorta similar to the bad panic reflex of grabbing above the rope on a grigri (but less likely). Or maybe the extra carabiner leverage could let you accidentally rotate the ATC along the axis of the loaded rope, compromising the auto-locking that way, sorta like the ATC guide failure mode when belaying 2 people at once if the ropes both pull different directions. |
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Hm, one thing I'm learning from the comments here is that the method is not as well known / commonly used as I thought. That means the lack of accidents with it isn't as indicative of safety as it would be if the method were used a lot.. |
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Jacob Wolniewicz wrote: If you overcome the weighted rope and don't back up the climber when you undo the guided mode you've essentially created a 2:1 pulley system around the carabiner much like you would have in a c-pulley crevasse rescue system.There's no 2:1 here. It's just a 1:1 redirect around a carabiner. |
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I've used my nut tool as a lever instead of a carabiner to lower in guide mode. It seems to offer better control. |
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Using a friction hitch backup is not specific to the lever lower in guide mode. Backups should be considered fundamental to direct anchor lowers, except if there is a obvious benefit to not use one. |
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Serge Smirnov wrote: Hm, one thing I'm learning from the comments here is that the method is not as well known / commonly used as I thought. That means the lack of accidents with it isn't as indicative of safety as it would be if the method were used a lot.. I think anyone who has a pivot is likely to use this as their primary method for lowering at least short distances. I don't think there is anything particularly dangerous about it and I've never seen a serious recommendation to back it up. |
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This was how I was taught to lower on my reverso and I've never had any issues or sketchiness. That being said it's not often I lower in guide mode. |
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https://rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/climber-dropped-when-lowered-in-autoblock-mode/
and an alternative technique: https://www.climbing.com/skills/the-lsd-lower-how-to-lower-in-guide-mode/ also detailed in the mountain guide manual. |
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I find it way easiest to just throw them on a munter to lower, rather than lowering with a device. You can easily use a friction hitch as a back-up as well. |
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coppolillo wrote: https://rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/climber-dropped-when-lowered-in-autoblock-mode/ According to both articles he used a sling redirect, which is a well-known cause of accidents when not backed up |
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chris magness wrote: Using a biner as a lever to lower a second who has fully weighted a rope is nearly impossible. Have you tried? Focus on biner ratcheting and device redirect. Or carry a grigri if you anticipate your second having to work on a sequence. This is absolutely false and I don't understand why people seek to unnecessarily make things so complicated. I've lowered people using the biner-in-the-hole method (as the manufacturers recommend) repeatedly on the Reverso and the Pivot. I do think that it is somewhat tricky to manage the on/off on the Reverso-- it is less so with the Pivot, which is why I switched to the Pivot. |
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Not personally but saw someone dropped to the deck when unable to follow the crux of Bearded Cabage. This put me off guide-mode belaying for years. On reflection, I should have blamed the operator more than the device. It was Thanksgiving (2005?) and JT was a complete shitshow of incompetence: this was one of three serious or potentially serious accidents I witnessed over three days. |
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This is the only way I have ever lowered someone while belaying in guide mode, often with a fully weighted rope. Works great with a reverso. If I had to lower someone an entire pitch, I would probably do the whole redirect with a friction hitch, but even lowering someone like 20ft, this method works fine for me. |
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As with much in climbing, you need to know what you are doing, and practice enough to be confident of it. That's a real danger. |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vB7tMKLh-g
if the climber is fully weighting the system/unable to unweight, you can clip your LSD carabiner to a redirected sling thats clipped to your belay loop and force the LSD. However, you still want a 3rd hand in these cases. |