More Tensleep Drama

Old lady H wrote:

Here is another consideration for those setting policy. What about the old bolted routes? I have two areas that have been closed to "development" for decades now, but still not exactly closed to "climbing". Which means those bolts are getting really, really, ancient. Do you follow the "rules" and leave that history there until it falls out (hopefully without any injuries), or, break the rules and risk making access issues worse? Just another non-binary decision to make, and a hard one, at that. This, I'd far rather have a climbing coalition working on, tthan "rogue" individuals possibly making things worse....for decades more.

Best, Helen

Just to be clear, you'd rather have the BCC focus on old bolts replaced (which they already do a decent job of, not to mention TS is so tightly bolted it would take several failed bolts to result is some serious injuries) than address an issue, you yourself, say will make worse for decades to come...?

Deez Nuts wrote: Enough to know that the recent (and early-90's) trend of veganism (vegetarianism) produces much more solid waste (and TP) than the high protein animal based diets.

I'd like to see some resources for this claim   

J T wrote:

I'd like to see some resources for this claim   

I was interested in this too. I didn't do an exhaustive search but did find this, which is kinda related:https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/going-vegan-isnt-actually-th/

Bighorn Climbing Coalition #1 priority is building a shit hole for climbers and others visitors.   Mission accomplished!!!  

I understand Bighorn Climbing Coalition haven't even brought a shovel to start digging their shit hole yet.  They do have lots of sponsors!...and just had a festival promoting themselves and all their hard work!  

The "Ten Sleep 18" had the courage took the action when nobody else would.  They did this to save some natural rock and give future climbers a chance at discovering new routes.   

I have avoided weighing in on this thread, because I don't really have a dog in this fight.  It has been decades since I climbed in Ten Sleep, but I could certainly see climbing there again & hope that this conflict doesn't jeopardize climbing access.  Both sides (the route manufacturers & the bolt choppers) are out of hand & need to take a step back to look at their actions.  Those responsible for removing bolts & filling pockets need take responsibility for their actions by identiting themselves.  This situation needs meditation & all sides need to come to the negotiating table.  This needs to happen ASAP, before the situation gets anymore out of hand.  Situations like this can escalate & ultimately nobody wins.  We all stand to lose.

Deez Nuts wrote: Redyns, imagine if Gluey went to those places and manufactured/chipped/glued climbs in order to generate more business for himself before moving into the next crag/guidebook.

Hopwood, does turning a blind eye to manufacturing/chipping/drilling a shared resource for an individual's profit/ego sound like the right approach?

(Editted to address caughtoutside's point)

Deez Nuts,

No one is turning a blind eye. This is a travesty that has garnered a lot of attention and needs to stop. It appears to have stopped though, at least for now. No further damage is being done. Major transgressors have owned up to it and promised not to repeat their actions. So I would advocate for a level headed discussion about what to do with existing routes, and action after community consensus is developed. Vigilante justice is a good way to start a bolt war, which benefits no one. 

Hopwood, this HAS NOT stopped and WILL NOT stop. Gluey has done this same shit to countless rocks in CA (and elsewhere?) and he promised to stop at least once 15 years ago when he was confronted about his horrible glue and chipping jobs on perfectly climbable granite in socal. He will do it again, guaranteed.

Sounds like BCC knew about it all along, while the Mrs was sitting on the board. Surely she knew, if not helped, and let it continue until others spoke up. If that aint turning a blind eye not sure what is. Thank god someone spoke up and did something.

Mark Rolofson wrote: I have avoided weighing in on this thread, because I don't really have a dog in this fight.  It has been decades since I climbed in Ten Sleep, but I could certainly see climbing there again & hope that this conflict doesn't jeopardize climbing access.  Both sides (the route manufacturers & the bolt choppers) are out of hand & need to take a step back to look at their actions.  Those responsible for removing bolts & filling pockets need take responsibility for their actions by identiting themselves.  This situation needs meditation & all sides need to come to the negotiating table.  This needs to happen ASAP, before the situation gets anymore out of hand.  Situations like this can escalate & ultimately nobody wins.  We all stand to lose.

What good would the 18 individuals identifying themselves do other than open themselves up to shitty MP comments filling their egos or offering worthless criticism? They know exactly what they did and have had it planned out for some time now. Those involved in this drama (and those who spend time in TS) know who was/are the main ring leaders of the 18.

Many of those  who did this chopping have attended the manufacturers meetings with all parties involved, I know this for fact. I would venture a guess that their motives are just as many have said here that that BCC is being timid with their actions. 

C Hopwood wrote:

Deez Nuts,

No one is turning a blind eye. This is a travesty that has garnered a lot of attention and needs to stop. It appears to have stopped though, at least for now. No further damage is being done. Major transgressors have owned up to it and promised not to repeat their actions. So I would advocate for a level headed discussion about what to do with existing routes, and action after community consensus is developed. Vigilante justice is a good way to start a bolt war, which benefits no one. 

Go to the Ark (as well as the new stuff that you will find if you take the left fork where the trail meets the wall) if you truly believe this. People in canyon can attest that this is still going on, albeit less often and less obvious. 

Please stop calling them “the 18” that is lame as fuck

Josh Lipko wrote: Please stop calling them “the 18” that is lame as fuck

How about the Ten Sleep Rock Rescue Team?  That does seem more appropriate. 

How about “People Against Trashing the Rock Inconsiderately Of Ten Sleep”......The “PATRIOTS”

Haha. 

Everyone I knew in socal were thrilled when Gluey got to work on the quarry, mainly because they thought it would keep his shit work off natural stone. They were wrong. And if you think he is done in ten sleep you are wrong. If you think he won't take his shit to the next crag, wrong again.

J T wrote:

Go to the Ark (as well as the new stuff that you will find if you take the left fork where the trail meets the wall) if you truly believe this. People in canyon can attest that this is still going on, albeit less often and less obvious.

Are the mono's on Joy of Heresy drilled?  That would explain the name.  What about the mono on Cocaine Rodeo?  Both 5-star routes my most peoples account. What is real?

Julian H wrote:I find it ridiculous that climbing companies make so much money and they don’t are not involved more in supporting climbing areas. They should pay for people updating and developing new routes. They make money from climbing and it is in they interest to protect their investment. You know capitalism and all that shit.  

i'd venture to say "climbing/outdoors companies" do a decent job at giving back, i.e. REI, Patagonia, Columbia, etc...Why would they waste their time getting involved with a local crag?  the only reason why this tiny slice of earth is even making news is because of the drama.  And calling it 'news' relative to the rest of the world is being generous.

And yes, they make money from climbing....because climbers willingly give them money for their products. They really dont owe us shit except quality products which we chose or chose not to purchase.  capitalism works both ways.

J. R. wrote: Are the mono's on Joy of Heresy drilled?  That would explain the name.  What about the mono on Cocaine Rodeo?  Both 5-star routes my most peoples account. What is real?

A. Both of those routes were put up during a time when drilling was more acceptable, it is not longer that way. 

B. I haven't climbed Cocain Rodeo is years so I won't comment on it as I don't remember a drilled pocket, but I believe Heresy would not go without that SINGULAR drilled pocket.

Again the issue here is that the trend has been that there are anywhere from 10-30 drilled pockets per route that Louie puts up, as well as it is no longer acceptable to be drilling pockets on climbable rock. There are plenty of routes in TS. There's no need for more. The area doesn't need more climbers. If you can't find one of the 600-800+ routes in Aaron's guidebook (600-800+ routes that have existed for 20+ years with no drama surrounding then, with the exception of a handful) then climb somewhere else. If there were one or two routes over the course of 2-3 years this would not have lead to bolt wars, however I venture a guess that there are close to 100 routes now that have been heavily manufactured by multiple parties, not just Louie. 

Josh Lipko wrote: Please stop calling them “the 18” that is lame as fuck

Hopefully the ethics police stay in ten sleep and out of the land of manufactured climbs, cough, I mean rifle

Wally, Gluey drilled pockets and chipped edges   in granite boulders in socal that made the gunks chipper guy's work look pretty.

Mikey Wally wrote: do boulderers drill pockets? never heard of this drama bouldering (but it's probbaly out there, i've heard of cutting trees down for problems and glueing holds back on or reinforcing them but drilling?!). if you can't get up you leave it for the next generation.  if a climb doesnt go without a drilled pocket maybe it goes with aid, i dunno. fuck manufacturing, i like sharp holds that cut fingers, THAT IS CLIMBING ROCKS, rocks are sharp. stay inside if you don't like it imo.

https://rockandice.com/climbing-news/chipping-controversy/ 

This dude was essential blacklisted from the bouldering community after this. EDELRID dropped him immediately and he faded into obscurity. Most "manufacturing" incidents I've seen in bouldering is usually people reinforcing holds that could potentially break with epoxy. Doesn't mean's it's okay, but I think it's a little different than just going at the rock with a bit like you're a sculptor. The guy in question in Ten Sleep genuinely seems like he doesn't get it, which is infuriating. At least dudes like Ivan Greene were sneaking around because they knew they were wrong. Anderson and his lot are just so brazen. Agreed with your point on rock being sharp. If you don't like it, stay inside where it's safe.