Redpoint/pinkpoint

Sloppy Second wrote:

No, that's the part where I said it was pointless and not in the spirit of trad.

The trolling here is a little too obvious, 0/10. I am happy that you are keeping the spirit of trad alive, though.

abandon moderation wrote:

The trolling here is a little to obvious, 0/10. I am happy that you are keeping the spirit of trad alive, though.

Not trolling. People forget that trad means traditional. Nobody projected trad BITD. One led the line in it's natural state or they did not, accepting the additional challenges and risks of placing gear. 

There are no rules against doing it other ways but if you aren't placing the gear yourself you aren't climbing trad. Substituting pre-placed draws on nuts for pre-placed draws on bolts does not make a trad climb - it makes it a contrived sport climb. It's your comprehension of style that is 0/10

If you are going to "project" trad, then just top rope it. Place gear along the way if you want for practice. But no pinkpoint for you.

Sloppy Second wrote:

There are no rules against doing it other ways but if you aren't placing the gear yourself you aren't climbing trad. Substituting pre-placed draws on nuts for pre-placed draws on bolts does not make a trad climb - it makes it a contrived sport climb. It's your comprehension of style that is 0/10

I don't give a flying squeak, but my friend does, so I am asking for him/her.

IIRC there are a couple of permanent pieces on the Nose. Can climbing it be claimed a "traditional" ascent?
Also, I saw in the news that Steve McClure used a pre-threaded piece of pro for the FA of "GreatNess Wall ", does it mean that for the real ascent he needs to go back and thread that piece while on lead?

amarius wrote:

I don't give a flying squeak, but my friend does, so I am asking for him/her.

IIRC there are a couple of permanent pieces on the Nose. Can climbing it be claimed a "traditional" ascent?
Also, I saw in the news that Steve McClure used a pre-threaded piece of pro for the FA of "GreatNess Wall ", does it mean that for the real ascent he needs to go back and thread that piece while on lead?

Nose: yes

GreatNess Wall : No.  he doesn’t “have” to do anything.  Any ascent is an ascent.  Just don’t lie how it was done.  For those that care (fewer than you think) GreatNess could get repeated with a thread on lead.  Arguably a tiny bit more “pure”.This can continue right up to a Naked free solo which then, you can compete for on time.  

Mark Pilate wrote: This can continue right up to a Naked free solo which then, you can compete for on time.  

So, to recap - you either climb hard, or argue about ethics on mproj while hiding behind a keyboard?

Jeff Jones wrote: Consider this: You have a guidebook in yer paws and it tells you a rating, bolt count and anchor info(beta) you cannot onsight this route! Guidebook info is beta and in my opinion negates any onsight claims. I have found boltlines and figured I could get up them and have; those were onsights where I had Zero knowledge of rating nor anything beyond what my eyesight told me at that moment. Guidebooks often give crux beta too which obviously blows your "onsight" but even basic beta is still route beta and can only yield a flash. My opinion.

Reading about climbs on MP blows your onsight.

Watching Freesolo blows your onsight

amarius wrote:

So, to recap - you either climb hard, or argue about ethics on mproj while hiding behind a keyboard?

Whoa, hey now... whether you climb hard or flaccid is up to you.  I don’t even look to see ;)

But yes, you got the gist of it. 

the schmuck wrote: Mark, with all due respect, I know that you have been around forever, and are one of the sport climbing pioneers in Colorado, but I don't think that the term"pinkpoint" was ever adopted in Europe. I'm from the western Czech Republic, and I've never encountered the term until in the US. 

I think your are correct regarding the term pinkpoint being invented in the US.  The original European definition of redpoint is as I stated.  

Ma Ja wrote:

Just take them down, do the route, then put them back. No need to be disappointed.

Very funny, but I think you're missing the point.  It isn't about me.  These climbs aren't being done in as good a style as they were for the first 15 to 20 years of their existence (without fixed draws) and not just by me but dozens of other climbers.  Shouldn't the original style these routes were climbed for nearly two decades establish some precedent?  Bolts are a necessity for safety on those climbs.  Fixed draws are there for mere convenience & it encourages a lot more attempts by people who otherwise would not attempt the route. Too much traffic isn't a good thing.  Capable climbers are being robbed of a certain challenge.  All ascents of these routes are a pinkpoint,  These climbs are not 5.13c/d or harder.  Flying Beast is 5.12d/13a & Big Dog is 5.12b.  It's monkey see monkey do.  Because fixed draws are necessary on the hardest routes, somehow people think it's okay on 5.12 routes.  I'm not going to say never fixed draws on a 5.12 or 5.13a.  Great Escape & Mighty Dog are a bitch to clean with the running running over a rough lip.  Definitely those routes warrant fixed draws.

Probably more important to just get out and have fun and push yourself than care about what type of accent it was. Did YOU feel good about what you climbed?

Mark Pilate wrote:

Nose: yes

GreatNess Wall : No.  he doesn’t “have” to do anything.  Any ascent is an ascent.  Just don’t lie how it was done.  For those that care (fewer than you think) GreatNess could get repeated with a thread on lead.  Arguably a tiny bit more “pure”.This can continue right up to a Naked free solo which then, you can compete for on time.  

Speaking of naked free solo - RIP Austin.   epictv.com/video/climbing/n…;