Outer Space whipper in Eldo yesterday

Robert Rowsam wrote:

This guy the only one who knows what he's talking about. The grooves, teeth, sandblasting, of lobes is marketing. Makes little, if any difference in holding power. 

I'm new at this, and curious enough that I'm happy to sift through the inevitable chaff if someone can provide an answer. When talking about friction, why does it seem like everyone is in agreement that the surface of the rock matters (gritty, smooth, damp, dirty, whatever) but that the surface of the cam (lobes, teeth, grooves) does not? It seems like when talking about friction between two surfaces, both sides would come into play? The friction between two pieces of sandpaper is greater than between sandpaper and glass, right? Also very possible (likely?) I've missed the point entirely...

And because I'm also new to MP, here is an announcement of my education, climbing experience, skill, and intentions that seem to be required to post here- I'm not an engineer, I have very little experience climbing, my footwork is awful, I only lead trad well below my very modest limit so have thankfully never taken anywhere near a 40 foot fall and hope I never do, and I am just genuinely curious. 

Will Boyer wrote:

There is no video. It was my girlfriend who whipped when her piece blew on the upper bit. We're not sure why it blew, but she had been running it out a bit previous to that -stoked to be past the "crux overhang" part.

Yes it was gnarly AF but she is ok. Mostly just fell into space, but did smash the wall a little bit with shoulder/head after the rope caught. 

Nothing like seeing your significant other free-falling into view from above an overhang, to wake you up!

hey man, I think we spoke at the bottom of the bastille crack before you guys headed up! your GF asked to take a look at my guidebook. sorry you had such a wild incident! the part after the "crux" on that pitch is definitely surprisingly stout! was hoping for reprieve which didn't really come until the huecos.

as for overcamming, can we take this discussion somewhere more appropriate, like the comment section on outer space?

Reggie Pawle wrote: .....as for overcamming, can we take this discussion somewhere more appropriate, like the comment section on outer space?

??? Are you serious?  How is that more “appropriate” ?  

August McKinney wrote:

I'm also new to MP, here is an announcement of my education, climbing experience, skill, and intentions that seem to be required to post here....

Welcome August!   Thank you for your interest in MP.  We’ve reviewed your application and credentials, and are happy to inform you that you meet the minimum requirements to post sincere questions and queries to the full array of experts available to you on MP.  

However, we do prefer you to have a broader base of experience and deeper understanding with respect to abject failure in the realms of climbing, women, and life in general, before spouting off with unfounded opinions, controversial statements, and Bombastic pronouncements.  

I would attempt to answer your friction question and amaze you with my engineering background, but I stepped on my dick in another thread recently, so for now, I defer....(but it does matter, just likely not as much as you’d think)

Mark Pilate wrote:

Welcome August!   Thank you for your interest in MP.  We’ve reviewed your application and credentials, and are happy to inform you that you meet the minimum requirements to post sincere questions and queries to the full array of experts available to you on MP.  

However, we do prefer you to have a broader base of experience and deeper understanding with respect to abject failure in the realms of climbing, women, and life in general, before spouting off with unfounded opinions, controversial statements, and Bombastic pronouncements.  

I would attempt to answer your friction question and amaze you with my engineering background, but I stepped on my dick in another thread recently, so for now, I defer....(but it does matter, just likely not as much as you’d think)

That was kind of my assumption, that it does play a role, just a very small one. I suppose if you did manufacture cams with more "texture" it would just be a couple of uses before it was gone anyhow. 

The logarithmic shape of cams was actually designed based on the Tool song, "Lateralus"

Greg D wrote:

Well then, I’m gonna sell my silly old constant angle cams and get some of these exponential angle cams you speak about. I hear Blue Diamond is coming out with the new 248 series and Wide Country is developing a 3927. 

Since logarithmic functions are the inverse of exponential functions, I’m gonna make this my new favorite. The angle is exponential relative to the radius.

go ahead and read the wiki on SLCDs, i'm sure you won't you'll just keep trolling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-loaded_camming_device

"In 1973 Greg Lowe filed for a patent for a cam that used a cam with a "constant intercept" angle. Using a logarithmic spiral.[2] shape resulted in a uniform angle between the rock and each lobe of the cam; this constant angle is designed to always provide the necessary friction to hold a cam in equilibrium.[3] Designed so that a load produces a rotational force, the logarithmic cam shape allowed for a single device to fit securely in a range of crack sizes."

If you have some cams from before 1973 i bet you could get something for their antique value

Zack -  I think you totally misunderstood Greg. 

Jeff G wrote:

15' above your last piece is real run out,  In the real world of trad climbing.  Especially if you could fall, and you just placed a shitty piece, and you pass up multiple gear opportunities (like you would have to, to be 15' out on Outer Space).

Steve Levin, who guides in Eldo and literally wrote the guidebook, just did a talk at Neptune about safety in Eldo. One of the points he made, backed up with lots of stories about Eldo fatalities, was that this is rarely overhanging rock, the rock quality often sucks, there are tons of ledges and traverses, and a lot of us aren't placing enough gear for the terrain. 

topher donahue wrote: In my book, Advanced Rock Climbing: Expert Skills and Techniques, I write that "The Overcam" is one of the 3 myths of camming units. Here's how I explain it:

It’s scary to me how many beginner and intermediate leaders have explained that they placed a questionable cam at the outer limits of its range because they thought that the next size bigger would be “overcammed.” Overcamming is an issue because the cam may be difficult to remove (and people hate to leave gear; but isn’t your life worth it?) but not because it somehow makes the cam less secure or strong. The cam angle remains the same throughout the size range of the cam, and in most cases, cams placed tightly are better than cams placed loosely. With practice it’s possible to place tight cams that are easy to remove, but it’s better to err on the side of too snug than too loose. Metolius developed a Range Finder indicator on the side of their cam, which demonstrates this concept perfectly:

• In the loosest fit, the red zone is against the rock. Metolius explains: “Placement is not secure. A larger cam should be used.” 
• In the middle range, the yellow zone is against the rock. Metolius explains: “Placement is secure, but may move to an insecure position. A larger cam is usually better.” 
• In the tightest fit, the green zone is against the rock. Metolius explains: “Placement is secure.”

Most of the experts I've climbed with "overcam" their cams every chance they get. If you're a beginner reading this thread, know this - cams tend to fail due to smooth rock (like Eldo) combined with downward flaring surfaces. Place cams with a slight passive element (constriction or feature below the cam) and they'll hold (provided the rock is solid). Put them in even slightly downward flaring placements in smooth rock, even in the optimal range of the cam, and they are unreliable. 

This should have been in page 1 of the thread

Jeff G wrote:

15' above your last piece is real run out,  In the real world of trad climbing.  Especially if you could fall, and you just placed a shitty piece, and you pass up multiple gear opportunities (like you would have to, to be 15' out on Outer Space).

If you are cruising in a section that's easy for you and you haven't placed a piece in awhile, you aren't "run out". Placing too much gear when they don't need it is a classic noob mistake, always running out of the gear they need higher up, when they really need it.   

Tradiban wrote:

If you are cruising in a section that's easy for you and you haven't placed a piece in awhile, you aren't "run out". Placing too much gear when they don't need it is a classic noob mistake, always running out of the gear they need higher up, when they really need it.   

"Cruising in a section that is easy for you" without placing gear is basically soloing. It's a risk we sometimes choose to take, but it should be a conscious choice, not fear of making a "noob mistake". In Eldo, very skilled people have died from this choice because the rock quality is unreliable. Holds break. 

You can also choose to carry more gear and deal with the extra weight so that you don't have to run it out. 

L Kap wrote:

"Cruising in a section that is easy for you" without placing gear is basically soloing. It's a risk we sometimes choose to take, but it should be a conscious choice, not fear of making a "noob mistake". In Eldo, very skilled people have died from this choice because the rock quality is unreliable. Holds break.

You can also choose to carry more gear and deal with the extra weight so that you don't have to run it out. 

(Facepalm) So this attitude must be why everyone climbs so slow nowadays?

No. You need to be strategic with your gear, conserving for the future, and placing when you need to, not every X feet. 

As for breaking holds, pull down, not out and climb "light". If you break a hold and you were surprised you didn't assess your hold correctly.

Tradiban wrote:

(Facepalm) So this attitude must be why everyone climbs so slow nowadays?

No. You need to be strategic with your gear, conserving for the future, and placing when you need to, not every X feet. 

As for breaking holds, pull down, not out and climb "light". If you break a hold and you were surprised you didn't assess your hold correctly.

I take it you don't climb in Eldo. 

L Kap wrote:

I take it you don't climb in Eldo. 

I have climbed at Eldo and I'm aware of how chossy your best trad crag in Colo is. However, same principle applies, there's no formula for placing gear and choss assessment is a skill, a skill highly needed in Eldo.

https://andy-kirkpatrick.com/cragmanship/view/avoiding-the-deck

"Don’t be bold unless you’re treating the climb as either a walk or a solo: place gear every body length (the same as a sports route)."

Two very different climbers can climb the same route and place the exact same pro in the exact same place.....one climber placed it exactly when and where they wanted it  - totally cool.  But the other placed it only where they were able to - not so cool.

Point is that final judgment often depends on subtleties unavailable to the casual observer.

Tradiban wrote:

there's no formula for placing gear and choss assessment is a skill, a skill highly needed in Eldo.

Yes exactly. There is no formula. People get in trouble when they assume fast and light is adequate for Eldo because they are confident at grade, the terrain is "easy" for them, and they feel pressure (internal or external) to go fast. Accident analysis for this area shows that many injuries and fatalities could have been avoided by placing more pro. 

I'm somewhat surprised, tradiban, that you argue so strongly for using assisted braking belay devices yet you argue against placing pro on runout choss. Both are simple ways to guard against mistakes and bad luck, which affect even the most experienced climbers from time to time.

At any rate, this thread is about a big whipper in Eldo, which per the belayer's account could likely have been avoided if the leader had placed more pro. I'm glad the climbers were unharmed, and hope that people looking for accident analysis take away the lesson of erring on the side of placing more pro in terrain like Eldo where placements are more likely to fail and falls are seldom clean. 

Mark Pilate wrote: Zack -  I think you totally misunderstood Greg. 

Thanks Mark. He must have missed some of my sarcasm and context since he provided some 1973 wikki stuff. The logarithmic spiral has been studied for centuries and has existed in nature for billions of years, literally.