an unexplained accident

Señor Arroz wrote: It dawned on my while thinking about this that some belayers lowering a climber with a GriGri often modulate the speed of lower by opening and closing the lever partially. I can see how someone lowering at 2/3 open Grigri might instinctively open it up MORE when their climber suddenly stops lowering (as in if a rope got snagged). And then, when it unsnagged, the device is wide open and prone to the rope suddenly yanking through.

I also had a situation recently where I was lowering with a Grigri and an odd loop from twist in the rope momentarily popped the rope free of my brake hand. My climber accelerated and, by pure reflex, my brake hand caught the rope again  before it could get going fast. But that could have ended badly. 

It's no wonder I hate it when ppl use gri gri's to belay me. I read these stupid stories all the time. I'll stick to ATC belay, people don't seem to screw that up as often.

Jon Hillis wrote:

It's no wonder I hate it when ppl use gri gri's to belay me. I read these stupid stories all the time. I'll stick to ATC belay, people don't seem to screw that up as often.

I hate it when unreliable or careless people belay me. I don't care at all what device reliable and careful people use. Operator error can strike with anything. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

I hate it when unreliable or careless people belay me. I don't care at all what device reliable and careful people use. Operator error can strike with anything. 

Yes, and it strikes most often with the Gri. It was so bad that Petzl added a "panic" feature to the last Gri update!

Señor Arroz wrote:

I hate it when unreliable or careless people belay me. I don't care at all what device reliable and careful people use. Operator error can strike with anything. 

So you are un reliable and careless? Good to know.

Suburban Roadside wrote:
 .
 IS ANYONE MISSING THAT a LONG ROPE WAS IN USE ?
 The end of this rope was not on the ground, it was dangling, unsecured

(THIS ALLOWED FOR)  A VERY LONG "TRAILING-END" OF THE ROPE TO MAKE A TRIANGLE
RUNNING FROM STUCK SPOT ABOVE, BACK DOWN TO CLIMBER, AT THE POINT WHERE THIS TOOK WEIGHT, IT CAME LOOSE

THIS ROPE WAS RUNNING UP THROUGH GEAR, ON AN ADJACENT ROUTE, TO A GUNKS ANCHOR (AS MANY AS 3 ROUTES SHARE)

THEN THE 8 ON A BITE LOOP WAS TIED, A 'BIENER USED TO CLIP INTO THE BELAY LOOP OF THE LOWERING CLIMBER.

UN-LIKE A STRAIGHT UP & DOWN SLING-SHOT SYSTEM,WHERE THE WEIGHT OF THE CLIMBER IS A CONSTANT ON THE DEVICE & BELAYER...

 IN THIS CASE, THE ABILITY TO FEEL A LIGHT-WEIGHT CLIMBER WILL BE DRASTICALLY REDUCED

depending on the severity, A broken heel, (Calcaneus,w/ ankle compromise )is extremely painful &  can be a life-changing injury. 

Likewise getting dropped can cause  re-occurring trust/panic issues & PTSD .

Sssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Neils (original poster) e-mailed me that he wanted to post more info but had reached his "posting limit".

There may be more info coming on this.

Jon Hillis wrote:

So you are un reliable and careless? Good to know.

Who did I drop?

The following message is from Neils:  (I've taken the liberty to bold some points, and added some clarification in brackets "[ ] "R Hall)

"MP tells me I cannot post to this thread now - type limit - I think I don't have enough points or something so...here goes:
first off - your drawing is correct.  she and i were on a climb to the left i led and she followed when we got to the top we were going to rap on my rope.  the TR on the climb to the right was already there.  I started pulling up the non gear side of the rope for the tie in and prior to getting to the end one of my party said  - no need to pull it all up - just put her on a bight there.  so a fig 8 on a bight was tied and she was locked in there  -the long tail was whatever I had pulled up to that point - I am speculating 30 ft - I really don't know exactly.

 I spoke to the belayer today.  About 25 ft from the ground she [the climber] stopped at a ledge and the rope was unweighted at least to a degree.  She had noticed there was rope in a crack - it may have been the tail - I am not sure - it may or may not have been stuck.  I believe that is when after re-weighting the rope the fall took place.  I saw the rope run from above - I don't know how much rope really ran - it was sort of in slow motion as others have said it is in situations like this.  The belayer advised me tension DID come on the rope - she did come tight to a point so stretch was definitely a big part of this - it was not a free fall deck as I originally thought it was and what it looked like.  I think that also accounts for her less than what could have happened injuries.  I know a broken talus or calcanius is serious as well as PTSD - but from what could have been and what it looked like...it is much less severe.
 
It seems the long tail while very sloppy may, or may not be a red herring here.  It may be what she saw in a crack and distracted her but it may not have been stuck - I don't know.  It is possible she stopped at the ledge, unweighted the rope, and that is when the slack happened, somehow.  Even if it was 8 or 10 ft of slack I'd speculate on such a long rope falling free 10 ft then the rope catching you the stretch is going to be quite a bit and she hit.

as others have said in situations like this more details come to light over some time and that seems to be case here.  So what does the collective mind make of this now, knowing the rope DID come tight?  I suspect the rope saved her skinny butt or greatly reduced her injuries.  Also I am speculating on the 25 ft...it may have been 20...it may have been 30  - I am really not sure.  But the climb is definitely 100 ft tall.  A 60 m rope hangs from the anchor completely even to the ground."

[ also...the rope was definitely 80m (at least 262 ft) ]

This was an interesting read, all the way thru. For every theory presented, someone shot it down in a later post. Gri-Gris, the tail getting stuck, inattentive belayer, rope lengths, anchor failure, the rope slipping over a horn or from around a flake, rope stretch, were all covered. And none of them is conclusive. Hmm.
An early post on rope stretch talked about 25-30' of it. Some ropes stretch 30%. If you have 100' going up from the belayer and 75' coming back down, that'll provide rope stretch of 30% of 175', which is a potential of 52.5'. The part on the ground on the other side of the belay device isn't in the equation.
Another post asked how the climber can be lowered (obviously under tension), then magically drop 20'. The belayer can't push rope up the rock, regardless of the belay device used. All the belayer can do is push 25' thru and let it coil around his/her feet waiting for the climber to step off the ledge and consume it in one fall.
Unless someone has a better theory, or adds another data point that fits the puzzle, I suggest a rodent, hiding in the cracks in the rocks, was messing with the rope. This rodent fooled both the belayer and the climber. (I know this is a serious conversation, someone could have really been hurt. But after 5 pages it's not at a conclusion, so I'm tossing in some humor.)

All this speculation is a stupid way to determine the cause(s) To get to the bottom of what happened we need to know What, Where, When, Who, How

(1) What 2 climbs?  Birdland?(Bolted Anchors, but no ledge to stop on) Alphonse?(no bolted anchors, but a big ledge to stop on)

(2)Where did the extra rope go( dangling below? in a crack till above?, stuck?)

(3)When, At the end of the day when it gets to be a social hour at the base of the Near Trapps

(4)Who inserted themselves - took it upon themselves to recommend anything, to a 2-person climbing unit? why did that team take the advice without question?

(5) How does the Gri-Gri user's "mode of use" come into play? using lever&thumb or just lowering lever? a combination of "Gravity feed & feeding out slack or just allowing weight to pull rope thru?

Suburban Roadside wrote: All this speculation is a stupid way to determine the cause(s) To get to the bottom of what happened we need to know What, Where, When, Who, How

(1) What 2 climbs?  Birdland?(Bolted Anchors, but no ledge to stop on) Alphonse?(no bolted anchors, but a big ledge to stop on)

(2)Where did the extra rope go( dangling below? in a crack till above?, stuck?)

(3)When, At the end of the day when it gets to be a social hour at the base of the Near Trapps

(4)Who inserted themselves - took it upon themselves to recommend anything, to a 2-person climbing unit? why did that team take the advice without question?

(5) How does the Gri-Gri user's "mode of use" come into play? using lever&thumb or just lowering lever? a combination of "Gravity feed & feeding out slack or just allowing weight to pull rope thru?

Loose goose and up yours. I led loose goose and my partner followed and cleaned.  My friend led up yours and set the TR.  The non gear side of the Up Yours TR was what the lower was on.  Large shared tree on a good ledge.  The extra rope, meaning the tail off he bight was just hanging down.  After the lower ensued I have no idea.  Towards the end of the day but we were the only group of 4 around at the time.  The insertion was the other half of our party - we were a group of 4 climbing in various style through the day - 2 multipitch teams of 2, top rope, etc.  I took advice from the team on the ground without question...because I felt they had more experience and it's just what I did.  I consider that my biggest mistake in this situation.  I can't answer the last question.

Neils,

Your report is a good one. Thank you.

OK, you are all to quick for me, It has been more than 10 yrs, since I traveled by that zone
 but the area is described in T Swains The Gunks Guide(3rd Ed. 1995) & 2 old Williams Guide books.(Black Cover 3rd ed. 1991)&(Gunks Select 1st Ed. 1996)
These descriptions add needed information.
I don't think anything walked or pulled....
More likely that Rope build up on less than vertical terrain & stretch/releasing over bulges was partially to blame, cause/at fault 
 

 The section of the Nears is more secluded, not prone to end of the day socializing... 
The actual terrain is described; Straight up to a slab past a bulge to a 'short Open book by a prominent crack"
 near the broken left facing corner system of "Up Yours".
So This then gives some clearer understanding of the likelihood that the extra tail built up in the crack & at the top of the slab.
  & a slab and ledges that, in the climbing description, one " zig-zags" up, but would descend directly over when lowering.

It has been torn apart, the blame shared liberally & spread around (& it may seem to some, that concern for the injured marginalized)
but that was to highlight, & to get to the important issue of the cause(s) which sound harsh, I apologize in advance:

 hubris / over-confidence / complacency

all  clearly understandable,  Regarding Taking the well-intentioned advice of someone who you felt was more experienced,

Applying a "short-cut" that seemed safe, but that created the dangerous dangling trailing end that combined with the long rope,                                                                                                        lowering over  varied & mixed terrain,"passing" a "broken" open book & prominent Crack,  returning to vertical passing a "bulge to  less than vertical(slab)
 all that were lowered over,
Were the  physical causes. Those interactions, together with a belay that did not provide a tight rope, led to near disaster.

I really think it is commendable that your willing to debrief in this way

Patrick C wrote:  Some ropes stretch 30%. If you have 100' going up from the belayer and 75' coming back down, that'll provide rope stretch of 30% of 175', which is a potential of 52.5'. 

Sorry.  That is not how it works.  The numbers given by rope manufacturers for elongation (rope stretch as you call it) is given for 2 different test.  Static and dynamic.  The static result given is for hanging 80kg on a specific amount of rope, no fall involved.  Most ropes are in the 8-9% range.  The dynamic result is for a substantial lead fall with 80 kg.  Most ropes test around 28-33%.  The scenario presented is nowhere near the dynamic test, but may be more than the static test if there was some slack in the system.  Climber weight is another factor.  

The part on the ground on the other side of the belay device isn't in the equation.

Correct.  Nor is the tail of the bight.  

If I'm being lowered on a long ass rope via grigri, and I stop on a ledge and let the rope come slack, I'm not just stepping off the block without settling onto the rope first. This scenario means that the belayer either didn't notice, or wasn't aware of, this phenomenon, and I'm not confident in that based on the OP, however it is by far the most reasonable thing I've seen so far. 

neils wrote:

I took advice from the team on the ground without question...because I felt they had more experience and it's just what I did.  I consider that my biggest mistake in this situation.  I can't answer the last question.

Without question is one thing, trusting something blindly is another. It is one thing if a party says I can lower with a 60m, I'll tie a stopper knot and if it isn't long enough oh well we can figure that out. If someone says a rope is fixed and I'm going to jump on it to rap or jumar, I tend to ask a couple extra questions...

Suburban Roadside wrote: OK, you are all to quick for me, It has been more than 10 yrs, since I traveled by that zone
 but the area is described in T Swains The Gunks Guide(3rd Ed. 1995) & 2 old Williams Guide books.(Black Cover 3rd ed. 1991)&(Gunks Select 1st Ed. 1996)
These descriptions add needed information.
I don't think anything walked or pulled....
More likely that Rope build up on less than vertical terrain & stretch/releasing over bulges was partially to blame, cause/at fault
 

 The section of the Nears is more secluded, not prone to end of the day socializing...
The actual terrain is described; Straight up to a slab past a bulge to a 'short Open book by a prominent crack"
 near the broken left facing corner system of "Up Yours".
So This then gives some clearer understanding of the likelihood that the extra tail built up in the crack & at the top of the slab.
  & a slab and ledges that, in the climbing description, one " zig-zags" up, but would descend directly over when lowering.

It has been torn apart, the blame shared liberally & spread around (& it may seem to some, that concern for the injured marginalized)
but that was to highlight, & to get to the important issue of the cause(s) which sound harsh, I apologize in advance:

 hubris / over-confidence / complacency

all  clearly understandable,  Regarding Taking the well-intentioned advice of someone who you felt was more experienced,

Applying a "short-cut" that seemed safe, but that created the dangerous dangling trailing end that combined with the long rope,                                                                                                        lowering over  varied & mixed terrain,"passing" a "broken" open book & prominent Crack,  returning to vertical passing a "bulge to  less than vertical(slab)
 all that were lowered over,
Were the  physical causes. Those interactions, together with a belay that did not provide a tight rope, led to near disaster.

I really think it is commendable that your willing to debrief in this way

thanks. It's clear you know the area well.  Yeah some of it is harsh...some of it I may not 100% agree with...but shit...if I don't ask and the parts of the equation I could have changed aren't known something could happen again.  I don't want that.  Granted debriefing on a public forum might be questionable but thus far (and to my somewhat surprise) the dialogue has remained mostly constructive and reasonably judgement free.

So I want to say/ask this  Let's leave the could of/should of out of it for a minute, meaning could have rapped or lowered off my rope in numerous ways, should have kept us a seperate team, should have waited for my ATC to be brought to me, never should have needed to reach out to the other team at all...etc etc..all those points are taken and understood.

To provide some additional context this was the third time I had climbed in this area on these routes.  I had personally been lowered off the same climb in question twice on other occasions.  I have also seen other parties do the same.  Literally right before us another party was TR'ing the line.  They would up sharing a rap rope with another group that happened to be on adjacent climb (essentially the exact reverse situation of mine) just prior to us starting.  I know the rap was a decision from the top - hey theres a rap rope here - I'll rap on this.  Had that rap rope not been there would they have lowered off...maybe, I have no idea.

My point is, we were by far not the first group to TR and  lower off this climb nor will be the last to TR and lower off it - I am certain of that.   Perhaps my previous "routine" experience on these routes led to the "hubris/overconfidence/complacency"  If I had pulled the rope all the way to the end and tied the climber in to the end of the rope and that 30 ft (or however exactly long it was) tail wasn't there would this still have happened?  Did that tail even have anything to do with this at all?  I am not sure we can say with certainty or ever will be able to.  I was not the belayer, I was not on the ground at the time - some pieces are just not known to me for 100% certainty and that's all I can or will say about that.  It would shock me greatly if anyone was not being forthcoming but I know stranger things have happened - let's leave that lie there please.

So I guess my real question(s) at this point is, if we leave the pre-lower decision making that has been dissected out of this, and leave the long tail (may or may not have been a factor but it seems was) out of this...is lowering off a climb like this inherently dangerous?  A somewhat wandery 100ft pitch over varied terrain...why doesn't this happen more often on this climb?  Did the person being lowered not mind the rope or any possible slack correctly?  Was it because the belay was loose because the he couldn't feel her too much because the route wanders and she only weighs like 120lbs...compared to my 190 when I was lowered...although I have since lost 20 lbs :)

I guess what I am getting at is...if we don't have the long tail there does this still happen, ever...and if so, how assuming the belayer did not lose control or have gri gri panic? Explain to me how slack can potentially get introduced even if nothing got stuck.  I want to understand that.  Thats the part now I want to be very clear on for awareness and future correction.  Has every person that has ever lowered off a somewhat wandery, long, varied terrain top rope just gotten lucky?  I don't think so.  Were they not using an 80 meter rope that may have added to the problem here, maybe.

In retrospect I think a lot of people, myself included, have TR'd things that are probably not such a good idea to TR.  I think TR'ing is generally regarded as "safe" but the reality is it is a full game on climbing situation that the climbing community in general doesn't acknowledge..oh its totally cool, you're on TR...yeah well shit can still happen, never get complacent.  I didn't NOT get that before but I get it even more now.

Sorry for the numerous really long posts in this thread - I am kind of verbose but I want to make sure I am saying what I mean to say and providing context.  I hope what I want to understand and why I want to understand it is clear.

GDavis Davis wrote: If I'm being lowered on a long ass rope via grigri, and I stop on a ledge and let the rope come slack, I'm not just stepping off the block without settling onto the rope first. This scenario means that the belayer either didn't notice, or wasn't aware of, this phenomenon, and I'm not confident in that based on the OP, however it is by far the most reasonable thing I've seen so far. 

This.  To the question(s) in my most recent long ass post...if she stopped on a ledge say 25 ft off the ground and there was a 30ft tail that means there was at least 175 ft of rope out, probably more because the rope wandered through gear on the way up to the anchor and if even 8 ft of slack was there - that means she'd step back and take an 8ft dynamic fall and then hit the rope and stretch, probably a lot.  How does the slack happen in that scenario? This was one of the first question I was asked...did they stop at a ledge?  I wasn't sure at the time but yes they did. Is it the person being lowered job to know (or to be taught) don't just lean back on a slack rope and have some education how to be lowered? Should the belayer have her tight the whole time before lowering...of course...but perhaps he felt it was tight either due to the drag and nature of the terrain or the rope being stuck?   Is it possible somehow slack above her had gotten stuck (what she saw) and when she leaned back it popped at that point and that is what occurred?

All actions, for both the climber and the belayer, when lowering, are dependent on the feeling of tension in the rope.  The people are basically feeling each other.    I think Senor Arroz nailed it.   When the climber stopped at the ledge, the belayer was confused and opened up the GriGri lever, so when the climber stepped off the ledge it was open and the rope zipped through.

" I can see how someone lowering at 2/3 open Grigri might instinctively open it up MORE when their climber suddenly stops lowering.  And then, the device is wide open and prone to the rope suddenly yanking through."   

neils, you are right to expound outwardly with these heavy thoughts...

Gravity Sucks Constantly
Stuff happens
Bad Stuff seems to happen in slow motion but in reality, it only takes a split second

The moments of grandeur are framed by the moments of terror & misery, these sorts of things, the compounding of small factors that then mix to produce the most undesirable results
happen.
These scenarios are what we have to guard against, by following the unwritten rules as exactly as we can,
 but and still, things happen.

 I have been  climbing for a long time

My worst injuries, near death moments -have, come from un-roped hubris/complacency/over-confidence (same thing)
 When I have been tied to a rope & climbing smart I've only had minor epics

 by following 3 main rules

 Keep it stupid simple, always - Complexities, changes in a "by the rote way", bring in unknowables

Never give over your critical thinking to "the rote way" -with that comes complacency, try to think 3 steps ahead

Triple check,& check constantly, breath deeply and slow down if there is no need for urgency
- when the need arises hope that it kicks into automatic due to repition of "the rote way"

Russ Keane wrote: All actions, for both the climber and the belayer, when lowering, are dependent on the feeling of tension in the rope.  The people are basically feeling each other.    I think Senor Arroz nailed it.   When the climber stopped at the ledge, the belayer was confused and opened up the GriGri lever, so when the climber stepped off the ledge it was open and the rope zipped through.

" I can see how someone lowering at 2/3 open Grigri might instinctively open it up MORE when their climber suddenly stops lowering.  And then, the device is wide open and prone to the rope suddenly yanking through."   

From This point of view, Yes I can see that too. & add to it the facts of a lighter weight climber & a system where there is 'rope-drag' & stretch, I think that there could well have been a larger amount of slack in the system, not so much observable, as slack at the clip in point or in front(at the feet of) the belay... but just a bit of slack at both of those places might have given a clue?

(was the lowering climber & the Belayer in communication & in sight of one another?) 

In The End This thing we Love to do,

 this playing with gravity

Is deadly serious, It only takes a second, for there to be no second chance

And it is only by our angels' blessings that there are not more funerals 

Well?!  Thank You, Jon! (Playing with posting limits)

Jon Hillis wrote:Anyone read Anasasi Boys by Neil Gaiman? This dude reminds me of the psycho boss guy in that story. Talks all in clichés and confusing sentence structure. I feel like I am reading a foreign language.

I'll make a point to look it up!  
Garble Base is an acquired taste.  It takes a long time to decipher.  I was sure to include important observations

To make sure I understand in my language...

 Rope drag, A stretchy long cord, the weight of the climber, A 'clip-in' where some slack might be missed?  

all that is in combination with the stop & go? So a split-second when both belayer and lowering climber failed to feel tension,?

 When the ledge was reached, a little slack was paid out ....And the stretch came out of the cord,
enough slack crept back into the system &/or the 'rope drag' released  too
So much so as to result in a blap  . . . hard enough / / /Ouch!
Ok.