Redundancy for Belay/Rappel device

Aaron Nash wrote:...  biner brake .... I don't know how it would work for a belay though and would probably use a munter in that case.

I once tried belaying up a follower with a biner brake. It performed horribly, though I was not using ovals (have never carried them). For rap on a biner brake, one has your body mass with gravity assist to pull the rope through the biner brake. But for belay, my recollection is that it was nearly as functional as trying to force a cooked spaghetti noodle through a key hole. The biners tend to “float” around and jam.

I’ll second using a munter as a backup for bringing up a follower. There, first choice for me would be a munter hung on the anchor for easy maximum braking - especially with a single rope strand - as opposed to off your harness where one gets max braking while trying to push the rope away from you. And “first choice” is assuming a bomber anchor conveniently located (e.g., chest level).

Never tried a super munter belay, off harness or anchor. Wonder how easy it would be to feed the rope through with just arm / shoulder strength.

And I have not tried some other options being mentioned. Could be something else that is worthy.

kenr wrote: Main advantage of the Munter as an emergency rappel method is that since the Munter hitch is also useful as a _belay_ method, you can integrate practicing with it into your normal climbing. So then you can feel confident to trust your life to it in an emergency.

Ken

+1 for practicing with any system you decide to use.

Munter works for belaying or rappelling. It does tend to twist the rope but that can be mitigated a bit if you keep the rope strands parallel. Or use a super Munter but that's more difficult to pull

A carabiner brake assembly works great for rappelling (that would be my go to), not so much for belaying. I wouldn't try it.

Bachli Rappel Device ? I've never seen one in real life. Didn't Chouinard sell that as a "Seilbremse " once upon a time? Kong GiGi or Camp Ovo I don't think are recommended for rappelling but, apparently some people use them for that: https://stephdavis.co/blog/kong-gigi/ especially on thicker ropes. Maybe using two ovals O&O would help add some friction.

Yes, you can belay or rappel with an appropriate size quick link or chain link. A quick link might be more useful than an chain link

Other option: I sometimes slip one of these in my back pocket: http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Belay/StichtBelayPages/Sticht0608.html You might be able to find one used.

We had a rather comprehensive discussion of this topic several months ago
  mountainproject.com/forum/t…

Robert Hall wrote
Next would be the 4-biner rappel set up, but the 'biners pretty much have to be oval 'biners, and the weight difference of 4 ovals vs 4 modern, wire-gate 'biners is probably more than the weight of a small "ATC-type-device".

You don't necessarily need ovals, in a pinch I've used D's and wire gates.

As for belaying- There's the old "around the waist" belay that was used extensively for about a half-century.  Many a lead fall has been caught with this technique.  Gloves are a must, and a directional 'biner on your harness to keep the rope from your waist to the leader from running up under your armpit is an improvement.  

I've done this to bring up my second, I'd rather not use it for a lead belay unless absolutely necessary.   Be tied tightly to the anchor on both sides of your body (facing outward) to prevent twisting or shifting.  Use a biner (paralleling the belay loop) on both climber-side and brake-side of the rope.  Keep the amount of slack small.    In case of a fall, pull your brake hand back towards your hip (not across the front of your body) so the rope makes a 180 turn around the biner on that side.  

Belaying with a Muntner is fine.  I have heard (from the past Canadian & USA representative to UIIA Safety committee) that testing actually indicates "stopping power" is greater than the "ATC-type" devices.  I've never Rapped using a Muntner.  ( Does it kink the rope?)

The evidence I've seen says rapping with it kinks the rope horribly.  I've always used a biner rig for this reason.

Someone described this earlier but here's a picture. Probably over a million USMC recruits in boot camp have safely rappelled with a single carabiner.

Jim Bernard wrote: Someone described this earlier but here's a picture. Probably over a million USMC recruits in boot camp have safely rappelled with a single carabiner.

Any reason this would not work with a third hand friction knot below the wrapped locking carabiner?  

Thanks for adding the picture.  

Jim Bernard wrote: Someone described this earlier but here's a picture. Probably over a million USMC recruits in boot camp have safely rappelled with a single carabiner.

Thanks for the photo, this is exactly what I was describing. 

Yes you're correct recruits use it and, I first used it a long time ago, in the 80s, with leather gloves and manilla rope... It worked, and in still alive till today... Although I don't use manilla ropes no more.. haha

Live Perched wrote:

Any reason this would not work with a third hand friction knot below the wrapped locking carabiner?  

Thanks for adding the picture.  

There's not really any room BELOW the brake biner. But I suppose you could rig a prusik above it.

This happened to me a few years ago and we just lowered the first person down, then the second rappelled.   I've rappelled on a munter (like others, just to see what it was like), and honestly would just lower the first person then rappel if I was in the situation again.  Unless there is some serious time crunch, lost communication, or bad traversing rappels it's super comfy. 

Live Perched wrote:1. Munter hitch:  Is there a way to rappel (or self lower) safely with a Munter hitch?

I've done so many times. If doing a double rope rap I usually have each rope going through it's own biner, although if the biner is large you can run both through one. Be aware that a screwgate might unscrew if you run the rope through the wrong side.