Climbing at Paradise forks

Is the ecosystem of this cliff-top truely unique and rare? Seems pretty much like the rest of the massive forest that surrounds it, but I could be wrong. I think adding bolts to preserve ecosystems is like adding more lanes to reduce traffic. (except maybe in places where it would completely eliminate foot traffic like a crag you approach from below) Might be good in theory, but don't forget the law of unintended consequences. No offense but I think the true motivation for bolts is convenience, thinly veiled behind an "Eco-Steward" feign.
-yes, I'm bored

karl kvashay wrote: Is the ecosystem of this cliff-top truely unique and rare? Seems pretty much like the rest of the massive forest that surrounds it, but I could be wrong. I think adding bolts to preserve ecosystems is like adding more lanes to reduce traffic. (except maybe in places where it would completely eliminate foot traffic like a crag you approach from below) Might be good in theory, but don't forget the law of unintended consequences. No offense but I think the true motivation for bolts is convenience, thinly veiled behind an "Eco-Steward" feign.
-yes, I'm bored

Anchoring to trees is convenient. Bolting raps and anchoring popular routes to avoid all the damage done to trees and the apron is responsible. Doing nothing about it is burying your head in the sand. Your second sentence is bogus. I haven't climbed at the forks in 7+ years and don't plan too so trust me this is not rooted in convenience.

Darren Mabe wrote:
Not too common, but bring a couple of 1/2" RBs and if you can find any of my hand-drilled holes, you can build anchors like this one:

above, the tree is not loaded but is a catastrophic-backup. Obviously if you can find gear placements you can do the same thing.

Have fun!

Dude, THIS is what I was looking for. Thanks for your beta and I will keep an eye out for the drilled holes. I have an RB so Ill have dig it out and bring it with me. Really appreciate it!

Darren Mabe wrote:
Not too common, but bring a couple of 1/2" RBs and if you can find any of my hand-drilled holes, you can build anchors like this one:

above, the tree is not loaded but is a catastrophic-backup. Obviously if you can find gear placements you can do the same thing.

Have fun!

Dude, that is cool.  And you have way to much energy/time on your hands.  How can you find these 1/2" holes through out the area?

Richard Fernandez wrote:

Anchoring to trees is convenient. Bolting raps and anchoring popular routes to avoid all the damage done to trees and the apron is responsible. Doing nothing about it is burying your head in the sand. Your second sentence is bogus. I haven't climbed at the forks in 7+ years and don't plan too so trust me this is not rooted in convenience.

I normally would agree that bolts below the rim reduces cliff-top impact, but its kind of a conundrum at the forks where you "start at the end". Unless the approach somehow could be routed to the bottom of the cliff and eliminate foot traffic above(unlikely). Using metaphors is a dangerous game, I don't know what I was thinking with my traffic lane comparison...Doh! So much crazy shit has been justified using metaphors. What I meant to say was, I believe bolts naturally attract more people to climbing areas. If the goal is to reduce impact, adding bolts would bring more climbers which would lead to more impact, even if they weren't tying off trees.

Here is what seems to be a novel thought here:

How about those that don’t want bolted anchors climb at the forks. Those that prefer bolted anchors climb elsewhere. This allows everyone to climb in a style that they prefer. Both parties win folks.

If anyone claims that the issue is about the environment rather than what they personally want then it’s time to look in the mirror and consider the environmental impact of much more significant parts of our lifestyles. 

Eric D wrote: Here is what seems to be a novel thought here:

How about those that don’t want bolted anchors climb at the forks. Those that prefer bolted anchors climb elsewhere. This allows everyone to climb in a style that they prefer. Both parties win folks.

If anyone claims that the issue is about the environment rather than what they personally want then it’s time to look in the mirror and consider the environmental impact of much more significant parts of our lifestyles. 

No one has ever missed the mark trying to make a point more than Eric has today.

Rich. You seem to be quick to insult people from the safety of your keyboard. I would expect better from you. Rather than doing that, why don’t you explain your point of view?

You insult me behind my back. Give me a break, I don't expect anything from you.

Nevertheless, micro vs macro. Not much of a comparison. Hence my comment.

Rich -  I have expressed concern about you not involving the broader climbing community in your access project.  I do think that you are taking a risk with your approach in that as a resource becomes more formally managed, it becomes increasingly possible for the entire resource to be officially shut down.

That being said, your approach seems to be working so far.  I hope that continues.  The NACC could be a great way to get input.

No.  I was referring to Diablo.  See Rich's last post.

I would caution against calling Richard out on his development.  He has a pretty solid history of developing quality routes in the right way, and generating the kind of community involvement that improves access.  I'm no longer a Flagstaff local, but when I was I definitely benefited from his work.  I think throwing stones at Richard is unlikely to endear you to the locals.

Thanks for the support Kyle, much appreciated!

The forks has bolts so you comment is both inaccurate and condescending, Eric. It's also irrelevant for the reason I stated above.

Multiple folks have made it clear, outside this thread, (in person to myself and others) that they would like sensible anchoring solutions at the forks. People like you make that conversation difficult because you approach it strictly from an emotional viewpoint and support it with disjointed logic aimed at embarrassing and shaming.

Fuck that.

In other news, just because you're not involved doesn't mean the community isn't.

The resource is being enjoyed by all parties.

You sure as hell didn't mind when I pulled my drill up after your FA of generic crack and sunk my hardware in so you could retrieve your gear. Good thing it wasn't the forks huh?

Then you insult me behind my back.

You're petty and you offer no solutions.

At least I'm doing something for the community.

I love climbing at the Forks and would support any logical efforts that could reduce topside erosion and tree impacts, and improve the chances for the rim vegetation to recover. Unfortunately, many, many parties go to the Forks expressly to TOPROPE. Many of those folks are also adverse to any sketchy approaches to would-be bolted anchors (e.g., they'd rather tie off a tree in order to creep two feet over the rim boulders in order to access a new bolted anchor to set up a toprope) thus negating their placement. Anchors would definitely improve the impact from parties that would scramble or rap down and lead out, but even those parties would eventually need to top out and would cause erosion in doing so. Maybe that reduction in impact alone would be worth it, I dunno. There's no easy answer here, but I for one would support at least a few strategically placed rap stations that could take pressure off of the usual pines and the ground surrounding them.

Rich. The bolts at the forks are almost exclusively at one crag down canyon. The main area does not have bolted top rope anchors. “Condescending?”  You’re being too sensitive Richard. You are the only one that got worked up from my post. Doesn’t that tell you something?

My post was emotional? That made me laugh out loud.  :) Thank you. Go back and read my post. I’ll wait. Now go read yours.  Still waiting. Now, who is getting emotional here?

Regarding putting in an anchor on my route, some climbers do that for other climbers, and some people frequent particular restaurants to support the owners. Don’t think that you’re better than anyone else for what you are doing or have done.  I feel rock solid about what I have done for the community. I just don’t feel the need to publicize it.  

Also, again, go back and read my original post. As you can see I did say that anchors are appropriate at other crags. You may want to thoroughly read posts before responding.

Regarding “talking behind your back” again, reread my post.  If me expressing concern about a particular approach to a climbing area causes you to get so upset, so be it. 
I have heard you say that you have trouble finding partners to get out to the canyon with you. I have never understood why that was the case until this thread. 
I am done here. Go ahead and reply, get your last word in, and make yourself feel good. I’m out.

My opinion:

 I believe that climbers:

1.  who have read or commented to this thread---probably love The Forks;

2.  seek the best interests for the Forks and climbers;

3.   who disagree with me--- are not my enemy—we simply have different opinions—(I do not have any lock on the truth---if I close my mind to others opinions, then I never grow);

4.  if I decide to make those who disagree with me my enemy, then;

a.  the Forks won’t get the deep community thought and discussion it deserves;

b.  the community cannot unite for important access issues; and,

c.  we all are the worse for it.

Whoosh. There is enough fire here to burn the entire canyon down! I appreciate the notion that all here love this place.

For me PF has been a dojo, one that taught me almost everything I once knew and deemed all important about tradition, ethics, and ultimate creativity. These things guided me through my first hand jams and my first runouts.

I also learned to love the place for its statueette and often silent columns of inspiration. I helped create Fork Fest primarily to bring a group of any size together to celebrate the area and give back through community lead action. Learn new ways of anchoring techniques and even demo'd the failing of the climbing communities wear and tear on "The Prow Tree". All things evolve as so does the necessity of such large gatherings it appears last time I visited the canyon trash had built up again from floods, most removed again from this last year's revamped FF.  

All that being said doesn't seem like there is a clear option except to remain creative. Bolts are likely unnecessary in most areas as has been pointed ou but so is obnoxious tree use. So far as I can tell cliff erosion is only gonna increase without the invention of hoverbelays. The RB is brilliant and in many ways is an awesome option and sits nicely with all my other shiney fucking expensive trinkets.

Here in Colorado most cracks have bolts all over ;) what do I know anymore.

Long Live Paradise and all who are Lost there! 

While a significant number of climbers visit the area to TR, there are still climbers that prefer to lead. Rap stations or anchor bolts on the classics probably won't limit the erosion from the topropers, but it could help reduce it from those who lead. I like to believe that every little bit helps, and the Forks is certainly worth the time and effort to protect it for as long as possible.

The removal bolt is a great idea, but without knowledge of the locations of the holes, they're not very helpful. A "map" or list documenting the location of these holes could keep everyone happy and encourage those who want to personally reduce their impact, while also keeping the tourists/hikers from noticing any eyesores. I don't own any RBs, but knowing where I could place them would make them a worthy investment for me.

Great to see some support for sensible solutions to a never-ending problem.

A fortune teller told me that only once the prow tree uproots and slays several climbers will a solution be determined. The gods of ethics demand an offering of stoner bro.