Fixe Triplex feedback?

MorganH wrote: Are you 100% sure that was a 12mm hole? I've pulled a couple with Hurley Seniors after taking of the nuts and tapping the anchor into the sleeve, and it's comparable/slightly harder than pulling a wedge bolt that's been spun.

Not positive. I attempted to re-drill this to 1/2"(12.7mm), and the bit hammered in and bound up. That shouldn't have happened if the hole was already 1/2". Ease of removal would suggest the hole was oversized, but I don't think it was. Possibly drilled with a worn 1/2" bit making it bigger than 12mm but less than 1/2"?

I've never used a puller on these. Either leveraging the hanger, or using a tuning fork under the flange has been enough when loosened to then get out by hand. when unable to completely loosen before it starts to spin, i've used a tuning fork until I can get a vise grip around the sleeve and torque/leverage it out.

once you push the stud back in are you tapping the sleeve and using a draw stud to pull with the Hurley? 

Peter Thomas wrote:

Not positive. I attempted to re-drill this to 1/2"(12.7mm), and the bit hammered in and bound up. That shouldn't have happened if the hole was already 1/2". Ease of removal would suggest the hole was oversized, but I don't think it was. Possibly drilled with a worn 1/2" bit making it bigger than 12mm but less than 1/2"?

I've never used a puller on these. Either leveraging the hanger, or using a tuning fork under the flange has been enough when loosened to then get out by hand. when unable to completely loosen before it starts to spin, i've used a tuning fork until I can get a vise grip around the sleeve and torque/leverage it out.

once you push the stud back in are you tapping the sleeve and using a draw stud to pull with the Hurley? 

Nope, just used the hurley sr. on the hanger. 

I have a hard time believing it was a 12mm bit, I've had to hammer pretty hard on the bolts just to get them into the hole, without any torque on them at all. Maybe it's an artifact of the different rock-type. 

Looks like a 12mm hole, that's about what I do to remove one after loosening the nut. That bolt looks like it was never properly torqued, there should be a lot more threads showing, but maybe the nut just loosened up. Peter will know on the hole size since either the 1/2" bit would slide in or not.

Also don't forget that tapping a sleeve exerts significant outward pressure on the sleeve, so it's going to expand a stainless sleeve into the walls of the hole even if it was a bit loose to start. I've even seen soft rock where you simply couldn't tap a 3/8" 5-piece sleeve since the sleeve just expanded into the rock as you tried to tap it (Castlewood Canyon south of Denver...and yes we replaced with 6" glue-ins).

Morgan, that's odd, what rock type? I've always been able to either slide them in by hand or tap very lightly (like with the spine of a carabiner or very light taps with a hammer). I've used them in granite, grainy quartz monzonite (I think that's the type of rock - Alabama Hills), and sandstone.

It's a wierd super hard metamorphosed sedimentary rock. Even with brand new 12mm drills, I've had to exert significant force on them to get them into the hole.

MorganH wrote: It's a wierd super hard metamorphosed sedimentary rock. Even with brand new 12mm drills, I've had to exert significant for eon them to get them into the hole.

I've used these bolts in both bullet-hard quartzite, and in the softer gneiss/schist (Ashe metamorphic suite) back in NC and have experienced everything from tight fitting (quartzite) where I had to hammer them in, to alarmingly loose (primarily schist) for which I would sometimes upsize to 1/2 bolts instead.

FYI: Not sure if anyone else has experimented with this but, it is possible to cut off the lip of these bolts where the hanger sits using a dremmel/angle grinder to make these bolts safer. This effectively turns them into a high quality version of the "redhead sleeve anchor", for lack of a better desription. PITA but if you have a bunch lying around...

nbrown wrote: FYI: Not sure if anyone else has experimented with this but, it is possible to cut off the lip of these bolts where the hanger sits using a dremmel/angle grinder to make these bolts safer. This effectively turns them into a high quality version of the "redhead sleeve anchor", for lack of a better desription. PITA but if you have a bunch lying around...

I played with this based on another forum, but it made me nervous, and I never used one with the flange removed on a climb. I don't have tools to cut the flange off without the metal getting hot, and don't know how tempering the SS sleeve will impact its strength/behavior. I know just enough to know I don't know enough to start modifying these.

nbrown wrote: FYI: Not sure if anyone else has experimented with this but, it is possible to cut off the lip of these bolts where the hanger sits using a dremmel/angle grinder to make these bolts safer. This effectively turns them into a high quality version of the "redhead sleeve anchor", for lack of a better desription. PITA but if you have a bunch lying around...

This is what I've done with the remainder of my triplex bolts. Then I place them with a 10mm hanger. It would be interesting to see how this affects bolt strength.

How is this any different that simply placing the hanger on top of the sleeve?  

dscramer wrote: How is this any different that simply placing the hanger on top of the sleeve?  

Unless you take the time to countersink the flange the hanger seems to sit out a bit from the rock. In my experience this tends to increase the chance of loosening the nut and hanger. Again, it would be interesting to see how the strength of the bolt is affected by this. Either way it makes the bolt permanent, though I think a couple of minutes with a cutoff wheel is easier than countersinking every flange.

C. Williams wrote:

Unless you take the time to countersink the flange the hanger seems to sit out a bit from the rock. In my experience this tends to increase the chance of loosening the nut and hanger. Again, it would be interesting to see how the strength of the bolt is affected by this. Either way it makes the bolt permanent, though I think a couple of minutes with a cutoff wheel is easier than countersinking every flange.

^ This

Countersinking is a PITA on lead. I know you could do it later on rap or whatever but it's still a pain.

Nathan,  have you tried countersinking first with a large diameter bit, then drilling the hole for the bolt in the center of the countersink. 

Andrew AJ Jackson wrote: Nathan,  have you tried countersinking first with a large diameter bit, then drilling the hole for the bolt in the center of the countersink. 

Unfortunately, when this triplex is replaced, the new bolt will be unsupported in the shear plane. What's the point? Just use a real bolt from the start.

MH

I agree with Mark - if you have to mess around so much why even use it?  

Were Triplex used at Rosario?

Regarding supporting the lip of the bolt hole: Not to encourage the countersinking - but when we replace the Mammut ring bolts with 16mm twisted leg bolts using a core drill, that bit creates a short 3/4" diameter hole. We put a spacer made from stainless tubing in that section and drill the remainder of the hole at 5/8". We glue the glue-in and spacer at the same time.
  

Andrew AJ Jackson wrote: Nathan,  have you tried countersinking first with a large diameter bit, then drilling the hole for the bolt in the center of the countersink. 

Andrew, I haven't. When I was using these the most, ~ 2005,  it was almost exclusively on lead where they worked well in the Cashiers-type rock that tends to vary from placement to placement. At that time we were't yet aware of this finicky issue. FWIW, I thought they were pretty good bolts for that time; they set better in soft rock than the 5-piece and were the go-to (at least for me) for steep but soft sandstone bolting. Nowadays, it seems most are using them as temp placements on the way up and then replacing with glue-ins on the way down. 

Anyway, all that to say that at one time I thought they were useful. But I agree with other in that there are now much better choices out there.