Front Range rebolting request from BCC--Want to get more involved?

The BCC is a great organization that works really hard to maintain access and reduce climbers' impacts on the areas we use. Boulder Canyon was listed in the Access Fund's top 10 climbing areas in danger last year from the massive volume of climbers using the area, and they are actively working to repair/improve trails to reduce erosion and habitat impacts, monitor eagle nesting to keep as many crags open as possible while protecting these amazing creatures, keep human waste out of the environment which threatens long-term access to our climbing areas, and they even coordinate bolt replacement. They do a lot, and as a majority volunteer organization, it's quite amazing that they are able to do all of this. They are certainly worth your support, financial and physical. This year, they have quite a few volunteer days already lined up, and it sounds like they are working on more. If you see a way to improve our climbing areas that's not being addressed, sign up to volunteer and get your hands dirty with working hard along with the BCC board and other local volunteers and share your concerns in a constructive way.

Also, tonight there is a fundraiser for the BCC to kick off their member drive at Upslope on Lee Hill Dr. in Boulder. $1 from every beer goes to the BCC, plus they will be doing some other raffle/auction stuff I think. If you care about our climbing areas and have thoughts/suggestions, or want to get involved, this is a great place to start.

Can’t take the survey without a google account?

Mark Roth wrote: Can’t take the survey without a google account?

It is set up to only allow one response per person - I can email you the questions if you really oppose creating one, although I'll need to duplicate the data entry if we want the results all in one place.

Edit to add: 32 responses so far with 19 interested in doing year-round bolt replacement projects. Progress!

Parker Wrozek wrote:
I just don't understand how people can't buy wag bags and use them. I would guess for every 10 I buy I give 5 away.

They are only $3 on this site right now: cheap wag bags

Thank you Parker!  I'd been paying $7 each (on Amazon) and it does add up (10 a month is nearly a gym membership).

Curious, how do you give 5 away?  Are you handing them to people or leaving them in stations?

Finally, I have a question: is it better for me to buy my own wag bags, or donate to BCC and then take bags from stations?  The donation is tax-deductible and I assume BCC gets a better price than I do, so I assume it's cheaper to do the second one (I gave $1000 to BCC in 2017, so I don't feel too guilty taking a free bag even though I can afford to buy my own).

This sounds like a good project. I'm interested in the "custom tools" needed. I'm a mechanical designer at a custom metal fab shop and could potentially help with this! I've added myself to the email list.

Hey Nick,

Any interest in making a tuning fork for 5/16" buttonheads for the ASCA to distribute nationwide? Ever since the fatal accident at Owens River Gorge, people have been out to replace 5/16" buttonheads, which are super strong and hard to get out - except for a very few that snap at body weight, which is why they all need to be replaced!

Here's what the tuning forks that the ASCA has look like - these are 1/4" slots in a #3 Lost Arrow piton. These bend open and break if used on 5/16", and if you mill a 5/16" slot there's not enough metal for them to hold up, especially since 5/16" buttonheads are so much harder to pull than 1/4". Various folks have made custom ones for 5/16", but we could really use a burly, tough, well built one!

Want to learn more about the climbers behind the bolts and the BCC? Come out tonight! https://www.boulderclimbers.org/news-events

John RB wrote:

Thank you Parker!  I'd been paying $7 each (on Amazon) and it does add up (10 a month is nearly a gym membership).

Curious, how do you give 5 away?  Are you handing them to people or leaving them in stations?

Finally, I have a question: is it better for me to buy my own wag bags, or donate to BCC and then take bags from stations?  The donation is tax-deductible and I assume BCC gets a better price than I do, so I assume it's cheaper to do the second one (I gave $1000 to BCC in 2017, so I don't feel too guilty taking a free bag even though I can afford to buy my own).

When I see someone with TP (sometimes a shovel, sometimes not) I just offer it from my pack. I keep one in my climbing pack and BC skiing pack at all times. Some people don't accept it and I don't push, but some do and that is cool. 

42 responses so far with 26 expressing interest in replacing bolts year-round and 8 wanting to help make tools. Very nice.

One other question that should have been on the form:
If we make spinner tools, puller tools, and draw studs for removing 5-piece bolts and sell them at, say 10% above cost - will you buy these tools? Will you prepay so we can get all the parts? 
My guesstimate on the spinner tools is ~$10, the 3/8" draw studs ~$4, and Doodad-type pullers for ~$50-60 (maybe a bit more, depending on the handle, bearing, and end caps - something a little closer to the YABR, but without custom machining and anodizing)

Edit to add: We'll send out the tool purchase option to all the respondents via email next week to take some orders. The parts take ~1.5 months to get here, so there will be a lag. 

Gregger Man wrote: 42 responses so far with 26 expressing interest in replacing bolts year-round and 8 wanting to help make tools. Very nice.

One other question that should have been on the form:
If we make spinner tools, puller tools, and draw studs for removing 5-piece bolts and sell them at, say 10% above cost - will you buy these tools? Will you prepay so we can get all the parts? 
My guesstimate on the spinner tools is ~$10, the 3/8" draw studs ~$4, and Doodad-type pullers for ~$50-60 (maybe a bit more, depending on the handle, bearing, and end caps - something a little closer to the YABR, but without custom machining and anodizing)

Yes.

Gregger Man wrote: 42 responses so far with 26 expressing interest in replacing bolts year-round and 8 wanting to help make tools. Very nice.

One other question that should have been on the form:
If we make spinner tools, puller tools, and draw studs for removing 5-piece bolts and sell them at, say 10% above cost - will you buy these tools? Will you prepay so we can get all the parts? 
My guesstimate on the spinner tools is ~$10, the 3/8" draw studs ~$4, and Doodad-type pullers for ~$50-60 (maybe a bit more, depending on the handle, bearing, and end caps - something a little closer to the YABR, but without custom machining and anodizing)

Edit to add: We'll send out the tool purchase option to all the respondents via email next week to take some orders. The parts take ~1.5 months to get here, so there will be a lag. 

Yes

We have emailed the respondents - check your spam folder if you feel left out.
We shall now arrange a town hall and go from there.

Questionnaire results:

   48 responses

   Q: How would you like to help?
   

• 15 'I'll spread the word'
• 13 'I'll give you money'
• 30 'I'll report bad bolts'
• 38 'I'll help replace bolts at the annual event if you teach me how'
• 12 'I already know how and will replace bolts at the annual event'
• 32 'I want to help replace bolts on a year-round basis'
• 8 'I can help staff the event'

   Q: Do you have experience placing bolts?
   

• 34 watched a YouTube vid
• 19 have placed climbing bolts
• 12 have developed sport routes
• 11 have replaced bolts using 'chop 'n patch'
• 10 have replaced bolts cleanly
• 4 with chop 'n patch experience willing to learn clean removal
• 16 know how and why to rebelay a fixed line
• 31 have used mechanical ascenders and etriers

   Q: Would attend a 'town hall'-style meeting?
   

• 32 yes
• 16 maybe

   Q: Interested in joining a 'core group' that meets quarterly to      plan, etc.?
   

• 28 yes
• 16 maybe
• 4 no

   Q: Interested in helping the annual crag overhaul event?
   

• 40 yes
• 8 maybe

   Q: Metal fabrication experience + willing to help make tools?
   

• 8 yes

Greg & Steve,

Apparently I'm 2 hours late to finding this thread! I just filled out the questionnaire. Any chance you can get me on that email list? I want to come to the town hall, and be involved in both the annual bolt replacement and year round bolt replacement efforts.

Thanks!

Gregger Man wrote: 42 responses so far with 26 expressing interest in replacing bolts year-round and 8 wanting to help make tools. Very nice.

One other question that should have been on the form:
If we make spinner tools, puller tools, and draw studs for removing 5-piece bolts and sell them at, say 10% above cost - will you buy these tools? Will you prepay so we can get all the parts? 
My guesstimate on the spinner tools is ~$10, the 3/8" draw studs ~$4, and Doodad-type pullers for ~$50-60 (maybe a bit more, depending on the handle, bearing, and end caps - something a little closer to the YABR, but without custom machining and anodizing)

Edit to add: We'll send out the tool purchase option to all the respondents via email next week to take some orders. The parts take ~1.5 months to get here, so there will be a lag. 

Absolutely yes is my answer to that.

I would be more than happy to purchase some tools. I have lived out here for 2 years now and have replaced anchors on 6 or 7 trad routes. I just go out of pocket because I use them. Is there a list or thread of bad bolts or anchors you can send to me and if I am in that area I can take some of the load off the BCC.

Scott Cox wrote: I would be more than happy to purchase some tools. I have lived out here for 2 years now and have replaced anchors on 6 or 7 trad routes. I just go out of pocket because I use them. Is there a list or thread of bad bolts or anchors you can send to me and if I am in that area I can take some of the load off the BCC.

No list yet. The questionnaire is still live, so fill it out if you want to be on our roster of volunteers. Up to 53 responses now. June 10th is looking like it will be the day for the town hall meeting. 

The 'town hall' bolt replacement meeting will take place at the Boulder Adventure Lodge on Monday, June 10th from 6:00-9:00.
a-lodge.com. [ 91 Fourmile Canyon Dr, Boulder, CO 80302 ]
They serve beer.
See ya there. 

Greg Barnes wrote: Hey Nick,

Any interest in making a tuning fork for 5/16" buttonheads for the ASCA to distribute nationwide? Ever since the fatal accident at Owens River Gorge, people have been out to replace 5/16" buttonheads, which are super strong and hard to get out - except for a very few that snap at body weight, which is why they all need to be replaced!

Here's what the tuning forks that the ASCA has look like - these are 1/4" slots in a #3 Lost Arrow piton. These bend open and break if used on 5/16", and if you mill a 5/16" slot there's not enough metal for them to hold up, especially since 5/16" buttonheads are so much harder to pull than 1/4". Various folks have made custom ones for 5/16", but we could really use a burly, tough, well built one!

Hey Greg, simply welding some support to the sides of that piton would be easy to do after milling a slot.   Making something fancy like that from scratch with all the curves would be time consuming (expensive).   Here are some cheap wedges that you could start with:

https://www.mcmaster.com/=1i4001u

Adding a slot to any of those would be easy.  

I'm a mechanical engineer and I run a small machine/welding shop in Lakewood.  Feel free to contact me for custom tools, prototyping, machining, welding.  brandon@nolimitdesigns.us.  Some examples of my work on IG @brandonisneat though, I don't post very often.   [read: I may not see a reply here as I don't get on the forums regularly]

Cheers,

Thanks for replying Brandon, your link to wedges doesn't work for me. Getting and milling these pitons for 1/4" is difficult and time consuming, all we'd really need is a tough wedge with a 5/16" slot and some sort of burly tether so people don't drop it (we'd also want a 3/8" version, but only a few of those since 3/8" buttonheads are pretty rare). The trick is that the tip of the wedge would have to be fairly sharp (not super sharp), and the wedge can't be too aggressively angled. And of course since these are getting pounded between bolt hangers and rock with bolts that may hold 3000 pounds or more in pull out, the wedges have to be strong!

I saw this thread, joined the BCC, and since I am a shitty climber I volunteered for wag bag re-stocking ;-)

Thanks for all the community efforts!