J Tree Pure Negligence Accident May 5

Alkaline Climper wrote: Somebody starts a'touchin' my rope without my permission we gon haf a problem nawmean!?!?

Agree.

Greg Barnes wrote: WRONG. I saw a new climber belaying totally incorrectly with an ATC - not even holding the rope! - and his leader was sketching. I ran over, grabbed the rope, and the leader whipped a second later - and I caught the leader then lowered him to the ground (while politely showing the newby how to belay). Then I gave the experienced leader a talking to...train your belayer if you want to live!

Coincidentally it was also in Joshua Tree - and like Fat Dad said, this kind of thing isn't new, this happened almost 25 years ago.

Yeah sure there are imminent danger examples like yours, or a kid running out in the street, where disaster is moments away. 

But nobody has any standing obligation to hold the rope for any incompetent belayers nearby. And even if you choose to act, you can still say something: "I'm gonna put a knot in so you don't rap off the end...I'll back up your belay ...."

I sure as hell do not want the usual safety know-it-alls to be "optimizing" my gear configurations without saying a word.

Tina hit it right on the mark (and gave these other climbers a heads up); "opinions" to the contrary notwithstanding.

How was she to tie a knot in a rope that wasn't even set up for a rappel yet?

Should she and her partner have stuck around longer to make sure that the rope reached?

And, BTW, you can rap safely with a 60 meter rope from that anchor, doing exactly what these climbers intended to do -- stop short of the bottom and do an easy downclimb.

Buck Rio wrote:

I once grabbed a kid (maybe 3) from running in between two cars into traffic...holy shit, you would have thought I was going to eat him for dinner, the whole family was raging that I "touched" their kid, "Nobody lays hands on my son!!!".  Even though I just prevented the little guy from certain death.  Go figure.

Amazing.  I've got three kids and I wouldn't have thanked you profusely..profusely.  Some people live in their own clueless bubbles, whether they be climbers or parents or both.  Still, karma is a good thing, even if the recipient of your good acts doesn't appreciate it.     

Edit:  Oops!  "would have" (not wouldn't have).  

Russ Walling wrote:

But Randy.....  they wuz on the POT!!!!

From my understanding, that only sharpens the wit, if not the perceptions.

Randy wrote:

From my understanding, that only sharpens the wit, if not the perceptions.

10/10

Greg Barnes wrote: WRONG. I saw a new climber belaying totally incorrectly with an ATC - not even holding the rope! - and his leader was sketching. I ran over, grabbed the rope, and the leader whipped a second later - and I caught the leader then lowered him to the ground (while politely showing the newby how to belay). Then I gave the experienced leader a talking to...train your belayer if you want to live!

Coincidentally it was also in Joshua Tree - and like Fat Dad said, this kind of thing isn't new, this happened almost 25 years ago.

I agree with Greg... saving people from [self-inflicted] danger is infinitely more important than being polite or saving face. If you are experienced and knowledgeable, please don't hesitate to put your knowledge to good use. It's rather difficult to make friends with a stranger when they are dead. You can always be polite as well. :)

Actions speak much louder thank words. We can save our mental constructs, social phobias, and anxieties for later when somebody's life is in danger.

"Please people-wear a helmet, know how god damn long your rope is and how that compares to the length of a route, and tie knots."

If people want to knowingly do stoooopid shite and kill themselves, that's their American right. Just don't affect my experience with your blasting music at the crag, and leaving blood splotches all over the place.

plantmandan wrote: So he fell 30 feet, hit his head, and walked away? Wow, that's lucky. The randomness of ground falls is mind boggling.

I think Tina brought up a valid point here, that bystanders can also be affected by climbing accidents. It must have been difficult to be a first responder to that situation. 

Some people are sociopaths and lack skills to empathize and some even post here a lot

Just to make it clear,
When you rap off from 115' up with a 60m rope, the ropes end 15' off the ground.
When you lower off the same with a 60m, the climber falls from 30'  when the other end slips through the belayer on the ground.
approx.

Jaren Watson wrote:

I know absolutely nothing about the injured climber, but I am 100% certain that falling 30' onto his head is not what he envisioned when he got into climbing.

When he got used to climbing in a gym and then took it outside. 

Josh C wrote:

Isn't that part of why many of us got into climbing: the freedom of it and how we can climb how we want and no one is there to tell us how to do it.

Yes - freedom has been a major motivator for me for ... well, forever.  And it is so even though the risk of death (or worse) comes with that freedom.

Interesting that I and Jaren have almost opposite in our reactions to Josh’s sentence above.  Hopefully, the world is big enough for both of us.

Sloppy Second wrote: Yeah but Honnold wasn't playing music at a popular crag in a national park, so his accident wasn't karma.

Dude someone got seriously injured. Have some respect.

Forrset Pials wrote:

Dude someone got seriously injured. Have some respect.

I do have respect for other climbers. That's why I don't play music at the crag.

Jaren Watson wrote:

It’s not, Bill. 

Maybe then we go to a kind of color code. Green pants for “ Please keep me safe” and red pants for “No thanks, I’m pretty sure I got this.”

Jaren Watson wrote:

The kid deserved to be saved, even if his family was a bunch of wankers. Good on you for acting quickly.

Split second reaction, didn't involve thinking. So I hope all persons in the situation would behave he same way.

Buck Rio wrote:

Split second reaction, didn't involve thinking. So I hope all persons in the situation would behave he same way.

Unless youre a hardened psychopath, I don't think there's a single person here in this thread, (despite how savage some of the comments are), who wouldn't have rushed to his aid in some way.  Yes, even those talking about 'karma' for playing music.  Everyone came together instinctively and without hesitation to do whatever we could for this kid, and in retrospect it was honestly touching to see.  Watching your fellow human's blood splatter will do that to you.

How is it that the “check your knots” mantra doesn’t include the knot in the end of your rope?

Climb safe,
Mal

I dunno, Mal...but given the widespread sloppiness I see amongst 'new' generation climbers out there, I'm not especially optimistic that such details will get that kind of attention.

If you see something, say something. Sometimes even climbers who know what they are doing make mistakes.  May this climber heal and be surrounded by love and compassion.  Positive thoughts of healing for the folks who witnessed it all, too.