Simpson Titen HD
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So in lieu of a recent thread's side topic. I feel it would be nice for the topic to start its own thread. The Simpson Titen HD anchor bolt. As some know, Mark Hanna has done some great testing with this bolt around here in WA in a couple different types of rock. A lot of the discussion and background info can be found in the Cobra Bolt thread. The whole process is pretty slick and goes relatively smooth. People have asked before if they could simple use a SDS adapter for their Hammer Drill, and the answer is no. You still need the impact driver to get the torque to drive the bolt into the rock. I wouldn't want to risk my hammer drill trying either. beside, the impact cost less than half that of the hammer drill. Here is Mark demonstrating the same process. Titen in graniteOne helpful tip, after the initial install, it is always good to remove the bolt and inspect the thread to make sure they haven't rolled over. In the video, that is my fifth bolt installation of the day. And the installation recorded, was the bolt's second time cutting threads. (EDIT: IT IS RECOMMENDED THAT A BOLT BE ONLY USED TO CUT THREADS ONCE) It still held great. I took out my 1/2" breaker bar and tried to over tighten the bolt in the left rock, it snugged a bit, but I think I was only able to put about 100 ft-lb into it before I couldn't keep the rock steady. So in a nice hard rock, I don't see one over torquing this bolt and blowing the hole out. My biggest issue on install was not drilling the hole deep enough the first time and bottoming the bolt out before the hanger snugged up. Which then, you remove and just drill a touch deeper. So some advantages I see with using this bolt at opposed to other bolts, First obviously is the ease of install and future remove-ability and inspection. Second, you have a solid 3/8" cross section to load, Don't have to worry about the necked down sections of other bolts. Third, if this did loosen up, become a spinner, you still have 2+ inches for the bolt spin and turn before the hanger would be lost. I would love to see this bolt further tested around the US in the various types of rock we have. |
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Thanks Andrew for posting the info and video. |
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Thanks for this Andrew! I think this product definitely deserves a look in all rock types. I was hoping to test in some sandstone this last weekend but the "Big Boss" had some other plans! The gneiss you have installed in is about 2800 psi compressive strength. Looks like granite but quite a bit softer. |
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Not for rock climbing!! |
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Greg- I would agree wholeheartedly if you were referring to the ITW Tapcon or Powerbolt screw in. Those suck for a variety of reasons. We will have to respectfully disagree though on the Simpson product. Get a handful and try them out with an impact driver. I have tested lots in various stones in both hand drilled holes, and as mentioned more testing is in the works. I would also note that both 5 pc and wedge anchors are for concrete as well. |
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I would put a lot of money on the fact that every single one of these would become a spinner in a short amount of time. |
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M Hanna wrote: Greg- I would agree wholeheartedly if you were referring to the ITW Tapcon or Powerbolt screw in. Those suck for a variety of reasons. We will have to respectfully disagree though on the Simpson product. Get a handful and try them out with an impact driver. I have tested lots in various stones in both hand drilled holes, and as mentioned more testing is in the works. I would also note that both 5 pc and wedge anchors are for concrete as well. 5-piece (Power-Bolts) are for stone as well, not just concrete (check their website if you want). The ASCA does not use any wedge/stud bolts (stopped in '99 or 2000 or so). |
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Taylor Spiegelberg wrote: I would put a lot of money on the fact that every single one of these would become a spinner in a short amount of time.Hi Taylor, 1) How much money exactly? 2) How long exactly is "a short amount of time"? I am not inclined to play betting games, but could use a little money right now. Out of curiosity though- Do folks dislike spinners because a) they can be harder to clip, or b) because they think the hanger will fall off? For these screws, b) is not going to happen. So, at an anchor, it hardly matters if the thing spins. |
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Greg Barnes wrote: Not for rock climbing!!Greg, you might look again at what Mark did. No brushing is needed. And he did comparison testing. What is needed is more data. It may be that the holding power is particularly sensitive to hole diameter as you suggest. Extensive testing could quantify this. But we also might consider that other bolt types are sensitive to certain aspects of installation as well. |
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But we also might consider that other bolt types are sensitive to certain aspects of installation as well.5-piece are incredibly versatile and not sensitive to installation, I've even seen a 3/8" 5-piece where the sleeve had expanded into about 1" diameter under the surface in super poor quality rock (we found that out since the rock cracked and broke off - it was placed too close to an edge - so the whole bolt came out with the sleeve expanded). |
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Jon Nelson wrote: Hi Taylor, For what it's worth, I obviously have no experience with these bolts. But I do know that bolts that utilize a hanger get most of their strength from the hanger being compressed against the rock. I don't imagine that these could put the same force on the hanger that a typical five piece or wedge anchor does. Since they're installed by being screwed in with an impact, any rotational force on the hanger (such as at an apex of the rope when a route turns) would put a small rotational force on the hanger over time and cause it to loosen. Thus causing the above referenced situation where the hanger isn't being pressed against the rock. Then, during a fall, the hanger is levering against the bolt, drastically weakening it's strength and damaging the hole.First impressions for sure. I wouldn't place a bolt like this in the wild, as there are much better options that have been extensively tested and last long enough where a longer replacement time is a good compromise. |
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Jon Nelson wrote: Hi Taylor,Well since I'm occasionally a betting man, I'd put $100 on these bolts becoming spinners/unsafe after ~10 falls! |
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I am not a betting man but I would throw $50 toward seeing a video the above testing being done. |
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I have them on several ground up climbs reaching back nearly a decade in heavy freeze thaw areas and in obscure sandstone choss. None are spinners. They have a serrated washer/flange head and are extremely vibration resistant. Once they came out in 316 SS, I am comfortable considering them as having excellent properties as long term climbing anchors. Here's the thing about a lot of anchors we see in the "wild": Very few are tested in the rock in which they reside. I'm making a serious and dedicated effort to correcting exactly this. Before proclaiming judgement based on other types of screw ins, I urge interested parties to get a handful and install them in your local choss. Then we'll have something to really dive into. Otherwise, conjecture is unhelpful. |
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I have them on several ground up climbs reaching back nearly a decade in heavy freeze thaw areas and in obscure sandstone choss. None are spinners.How many falls have been taken on each bolt? In other words, are these routes seeing heavy use with falls on the bolts, or are falls unlikely to have been taken? |
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Several have taken significant falls and route working. And the majority that have taken falls were the 1.75 versions in hand drilled holes. I’m no waif either at 215 plus gear. Greg- I like PowerBolt 5 pc too but I think we need to be looking into other solutions for the time when Dewalt/Stanley pulls the plug. I would guess that very few have been sold in the construction industry due to more recent designs and ACI code upgrades for cracked concrete certication (which Titen has). Climbers are not a viable source of revenue for Powers. |
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The 5-piece have been backordered for months, so looks like someone is buying them. In order for these threads to be durable enough to cut into the concrete, they are formed from carbon steel that is then hardened and brazed onto the tip of the anchor. |
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Used them in Darrington and Index granite. Compact hard rock. Cuts well with water trick as indicated in videos. I’m not advocating reuse to cut new thread. I believe he was indicating that the threads were undamaged and still could cut several holes in. |
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Greg Barnes wrote: The 5-piece have been backordered for months, so looks like someone is buying them. FWIW, I never did state that these bolts should be reused. I was making a demonstration of installation and instead of using a brand new bolt each time, I disclosed the fact that it was the second time cutting threads, (which was also the third damn video I made because of fumbling and mumbling). Yes, the hardened steel threads were getting worn down, and I observed that it was still holding tightly in the rock. But as you have noted, the manufacture states not to reuse the bolts. |
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Taylor Spiegelberg wrote: Well since I'm occasionally a betting man, I'd put $100 on these bolts becoming spinners/unsafe after ~10 falls! Sounds good, thanks. But what is "spinners/unsafe" exactly and "~" exactly? Previously, you wrote just "spinner", do you mean "or" or "and" here? In the previous post, you also said "every single one", which is noted.Just thought I'd save this bet and clarify. |
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Bobby Hutton wrote: I am not a betting man but I would throw $50 toward seeing a video the above testing being done. Thanks Bobby. I just thought I'd save this statement. |